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  • #61
    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Another trade idea, to try and get #2 pick AND keep #5

    TO MINNY
    - Calderon
    - $3.192 TPE
    - $2.57M savings 11/12 season, $3.48M savings 12/13 season, $10.1M savings 13/14 season ($16.15M savings over next three seasons, if all options were picked-up)

    TO RAPS
    - Flynn
    - Webster
    - Ridnour
    - #2 pick
    Wow. I agree Calderon is an ideal fit for Minny now that Rubio is coming, but while Kahn is nuts, and nothing can be out of his realm, but giving up Webster, Flynn, Ridnour AND the #2 pick for Calderon?

    Not happening. If it were I would of course be all on board, but just don't see Kahn as THAT stupid.

    Comment


    • #62
      Maybe if there was a pick swap, but I would like to think that even Kahn isn't that stupid.
      Eh follow my TWITTER!

      Comment


      • #63
        SCass wrote: View Post
        I think there might be a couple factors working against including Bargnani: 1) he might be redundant beside Love, 2) Minny probably doesn't want his contract, 3) I think Colangelo and Kahn would both rather include Amir.
        Actually, I would be fine with Calderon and Amir for Flynn, Webster and #2. In fact, I might even include Davis with Calderon, mostly because of the financial considerations of getting out from under Calderon's contract. But I think it depends on whether Williams (at #2) is going to be a really dynamic player and of higher long-term value than Davis. I kind of think that having #2 and keeping #5 might allow the Raptors to get a dynamic front-court scorer (Williams), while replacing some of Davis' rebounding and defence with the #5 (Biyombo? Leonard? Valanciunus?). But I think this decision really rests on the scouting of the prospects and making an accurate read about their future potential.

        Comment


        • #64
          CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
          Another trade idea, to try and get #2 pick AND keep #5

          TO MINNY
          - Calderon
          - $3.192 TPE
          - $2.57M savings 11/12 season, $3.48M savings 12/13 season, $10.1M savings 13/14 season ($16.15M savings over next three seasons, if all options were picked-up)

          TO RAPS
          - Flynn
          - Webster
          - Ridnour
          - #2 pick

          The thought process is that with Calderon & Rubio, Minny needs to dump salary and backup PGs. In a single trade, the Raps would acquire Flynn with the TPE and Webster/Ridnour for Calderon. For taking on the salary/player dump, the Raps would get the #2 pick (similar to how Cleveland got LAC's pick along with Baron Davis).

          Toronto would then have even more trade assets and roster options, in addition to the #2 pick. It becomes even more inviting when considering what residual moves BC could make with the additional assets.

          -----
          OPTION #2

          TO MINNY
          - Calderon
          - Barbosa

          TO RAPS
          - Flynn
          - Webster
          - Ridnour
          - #2 pick

          This trade would work once Barbosa exercises his player option and Minny renounces their rights to Telfair (they woud be far enough under the cap to make this trade work, though it may not be able to get done until July 1st - stupid ESPN Trade Machine). Minny could just include Ellington and not have to worry about Telfair impacting their salary cap up to July 1st, that would work as well.
          The #2 is worth a lot more than that. You seem to be treating it like a 2nd rounder, and not the 2nd overall pick in the draft. Somebody would offer up more than that. Disregarding the CBA for a second, you wouldn't get the #2 for Calderon and Barbosa, let alone Johnny Flynn and Ridnour as well. The Raptors are nobody's sweetheart in the NBA.

          Comment


          • #65
            Bouncepass wrote: View Post
            Actually, I would be fine with Calderon and Amir for Flynn, Webster and #2. In fact, I might even include Davis with Calderon, mostly because of the financial considerations of getting out from under Calderon's contract. But I think it depends on whether Williams (at #2) is going to be a really dynamic player and of higher long-term value than Davis. I kind of think that having #2 and keeping #5 might allow the Raptors to get a dynamic front-court scorer (Williams), while replacing some of Davis' rebounding and defence with the #5 (Biyombo? Leonard? Valanciunus?). But I think this decision really rests on the scouting of the prospects and making an accurate read about their future potential.
            wow is this ever getting out of hand.

            You guys do realize that this is being considered one of the worst draft classes in maybe a decade right?

            You guys do know what Johnny Flynn has done to date in the NBA right?

            Amir or Ed? Just to "get from under Calderon's contract"? You do realize he only has 2 years left and its 9-10 mil dollars... and we aren't talking about a Gilbert Arenas type player right?

            My god I am so thankful you guys don't run this team.

            Comment


            • #66
              GarbageTime wrote: View Post
              wow is this ever getting out of hand.

              You guys do realize that this is being considered one of the worst draft classes in maybe a decade right?

              You guys do know what Johnny Flynn has done to date in the NBA right?

              Amir or Ed? Just to "get from under Calderon's contract"? You do realize he only has 2 years left and its 9-10 mil dollars... and we aren't talking about a Gilbert Arenas type player right?

              My god I am so thankful you guys don't run this team.
              Settle down. I noted that it really depends on the scouting. I'm not a scout, and I doubt that you are either. I realize that this is not as good a draft class as others, but many scouts are quite high on Williams, and maybe #2 this year is equivalent to #13 last year, which is where Ed Davis was picked. I think we need to trust the scouts and GM and if they are really sold on Williams then I think it is a fair call to trade last year's #13 for this year's #2. A number of scouts see quite a bit of strength in this draft between 8 and 20. Actually, there are some draft analysts who don't see a huge difference in potential between Tristan Thompson and Ed Davis, and you could probably trade the #2 for a couple of lower picks that would pick up Thompson and at least one other good prospect.

              And are you really saying that you wouldn't trade Amir for the #2 pick this year, or any year? I like Amir, but I bet just about any GM would trade Amir for a #2 in a heartbeat, and any GM would be roasted for trading a #2 pick straight up for Amir. Just sayin'.

              I realize that Calderon has only two years left, but if you could wipe about $5 million in excess salary off the books for the next couple of years that is nothing to sneeze at, especially if the new CBA is more restrictive.

              I am not that high on Jonny Flynn, but I think it is early to write him off, and rebuilding will require some time. If he doesn't pan out, there are likely a couple of good guard prospects in next year's draft.

              Suffice to say, I would guess that if Kahn approached Colangelo with the offer of #2 and Flynn for Calderon and Amir or Davis, Colangelo wouldn't dismiss this out of hand.
              Last edited by Bouncepass; Fri Jun 3, 2011, 02:54 PM.

              Comment


              • #67
                Apollo wrote: View Post
                The #2 is worth a lot more than that. You seem to be treating it like a 2nd rounder, and not the 2nd overall pick in the draft. Somebody would offer up more than that. Disregarding the CBA for a second, you wouldn't get the #2 for Calderon and Barbosa, let alone Johnny Flynn and Ridnour as well. The Raptors are nobody's sweetheart in the NBA.
                Fair enough.

                I was just wondering aloud how high a value Minny would place on dumping the salaries of their 3rd & 4th string PGs (after Rubio & Calderon) and the salary of their 3rd string SF, along the lines of the Clippers' giving their lottery pick to Cleveland as a thank-you for them taking Baron Davis. I would be fine including the #5 pick with Calderon for Flynn & contract (Webster/Ridnour) & the #2, but I was just brainstorming ideas to get the #2 AND keep the #5... you're probably right that Calderon and the salary dump alone isn't enough.
                Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Jun 3, 2011, 03:04 PM.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Bouncepass wrote: View Post
                  Suffice to say, I would guess that if Kahn approached Colangelo with the offer of #2 and Flynn for Calderon and Amir or Davis, Colangelo wouldn't dismiss this out of hand.
                  Amir possibly, but not Davis, IMO.

                  I don't want to rehash the "Davis makes Amir somewhat redundant" debate, but if we could get Flynn & Webster & Ridnour & the #2 pick (Williams) by trading Calderon & Amir, while keeping the #5 pick (possibly Kanter) and letting Davis/Bargnani man the PF position, I would be in favor of it.

                  I wouldn't trade Davis for the #2 pick though.

                  C: Kanter/Bargnani
                  PF: Davis/Bargnani/Kleiza
                  SF: Williams/Johnson/Webster/Kleiza
                  SG: DeRozan/Barbosa/Webster
                  PG: Flynn/Bayless/Ridnour

                  That's a decent young team with lots of potential and/or trade chips for further improvement!
                  Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Jun 3, 2011, 03:16 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                    wow is this ever getting out of hand.

                    You guys do realize that this is being considered one of the worst draft classes in maybe a decade right?

                    You guys do know what Johnny Flynn has done to date in the NBA right?

                    Amir or Ed? Just to "get from under Calderon's contract"? You do realize he only has 2 years left and its 9-10 mil dollars... and we aren't talking about a Gilbert Arenas type player right?

                    My god I am so thankful you guys don't run this team.
                    You are aware this is a fan forum where fans can get together and discuss ideas, right?

                    Make your ideas, post your opinions, give your input.

                    However, no one is making this personal except you. If someone does not share the same opinion, so be it. Your opinion is exactly that and it is no better than anyone else's or mine - basing opinion as fact is where trouble tends to brew.

                    I think including Davis or Amir would not be worth many of the deals mentioned. I do think Calderon for Webster/Flynn is extremely beneficial to both teams moving forward. That is my opinion. Your opinion has been made clear as well. Neither one is necessarily right nor is either one necessarily wrong.

                    The enjoyment of these forums is taken away when posters continuously belittle others for an opposing view.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                      Amir possibly, but not Davis, IMO.

                      I don't want to rehash the "Davis makes Amir somewhat redundant" debate, but if we could get Flynn & Webster & the #2 pick (Williams) by trading Calderon & Amir, while keeping the #5 pick (possibly Kanter) and letting Davis/Bargnani man the PF position, I would be in favor of it.

                      I wouldn't trade Davis for the #2 pick though.

                      C: Kanter/Bargnani
                      PF: Davis/Bargnani/Kleiza
                      SF: Williams/Johnson/Webster/Kleiza
                      SG: DeRozan/Barbosa/Webster
                      PG: Flynn/Bayless

                      That's a decent young team with lots of potential and/or trade chips for further improvement!
                      Realistically, I don't see Amir getting a deal done for the #2. He's a nice complementary player, but doesn't have enough upside to be the centerpiece of a deal for a #2 pick.

                      Don't get me wrong, I like Davis a lot. But if scouts are correct, Williams could be a dynamic scorer from the 3 or 4, and the Raptors really need that. He also looks like he will shoot the 3pt quite well, and the Raptors are near the bottom in that facet. So, I don't think it would be an easy decision to trade Davis for the #2, but it would have to be considered based on a full scouting assessment of Williams, and some determination about whether Davis' strengths (defence and rebounding) might be replaceable by the #5 pick.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Bouncepass wrote: View Post
                        Realistically, I don't see Amir getting a deal done for the #2. He's a nice complementary player, but doesn't have enough upside to be the centerpiece of a deal for a #2 pick.

                        Don't get me wrong, I like Davis a lot. But if scouts are correct, Williams could be a dynamic scorer from the 3 or 4, and the Raptors really need that. He also looks like he will shoot the 3pt quite well, and the Raptors are near the bottom in that facet. So, I don't think it would be an easy decision to trade Davis for the #2, but it would have to be considered based on a full scouting assessment of Williams, and some determination about whether Davis' strengths (defence and rebounding) might be replaceable by the #5 pick.
                        I like Williams, but I think Davis has the skillset that can anchor a team on both ends of the floor. Assuming the Raps will be a lottery team again next year, look ahead to the several highly skilled SF that will be in that draft (ie: Barnes) that are as good as or better than Williams (and not as much of a PF/SF tweener). In that case, I would rather keep Davis and draft a stud SF next year, rather than trade Davis for Williams this year (lateral move at best).

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          unless you're getting a guy like howard, CP3 or westbrook (i use them as examples because they COULD be traded) then i'd be willing to give up davis. otherwise, absolutely not. too much talent at a critical position.
                          @sweatpantsjer

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                            Fair enough.

                            I was just wondering aloud how high a value Minny would place on dumping the salaries of their 3rd & 4th string PGs (after Rubio & Calderon) and the salary of their 3rd string SF, along the lines of the Clippers' giving their lottery pick to Cleveland as a thank-you for them taking Baron Davis. I would be fine including the #5 pick with Calderon for Flynn & contract (Webster/Ridnour) & the #2, but I was just brainstorming ideas to get the #2 AND keep the #5... you're probably right that Calderon and the salary dump alone isn't enough.
                            You say "3rd & 4th string PGs" as though they're just junk that needs to be ejected. Luke would be an excellent backup PG on any team. He's not some no talent, overpaid hack with one foot out the door of the NBA. At this stage in the game he's better than Bayless and not that too far behind Calderon. Jonny Flynn has big talent and lots of potential. He was the 6th overall pick on two years ago. He had a solid rookie campaign. He struggled last season with his shot because he was injured but did alright as a play maker despite it. If either of these guys are 3rd and 4th stringers on a team then no doubt that team has a serious log jam at the PG position. That doesn't mean that team should dump them for nothing. When you buy a new vehicle what happens to the old one? You don't trade it to some kid on the side of the street for half the Mars bar he's chomping on, you sell it and try get back it's market value. I think Calderon and #5 for Flynn, (Webster/Ridnour and Derrick Williams is still very one sided. Most people are saying Williams will be an all-star. Let me paraphrase the proposal again:

                            Outbound
                            • An aging PG who can't defend, who has lost a step and is owed almost $20M over the next two season
                            • #5 pick, which is far worse than the #2 pick given that the consensus appears to be that the whole draft is a crap shoot after #2.


                            Inbound
                            • Jonny Flynn, the 6th overall pick two years ago who has as much talent as any PG in the 2011 draft.
                            • Webster/Ridnour, both servicable bench players.
                            • Derrick Williams, a guy who many are suggesting has big time talent will probably be an all-star.



                            Moving on, Ed Davis is probably going to have a better career than most guys taken in the top ten of this draft. Derrick Williams looks like a high talent player but what he brings to the table is far more readily available in the NBA than what Ed Davis brings to the table. For that reason Ed Davis is more valuable in my opinion.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Apollo wrote: View Post
                              You say "3rd & 4th string PGs" as though they're just junk that needs to be ejected. Luke would be an excellent backup PG on any team. He's not some no talent, overpaid hack with one foot out the door of the NBA. At this stage in the game he's better than Bayless and not that too far behind Calderon. Jonny Flynn has big talent and lots of potential. He was the 6th overall pick on two years ago. He had a solid rookie campaign. He struggled last season with his shot because he was injured but did alright as a play maker despite it. If either of these guys are 3rd and 4th stringers on a team then no doubt that team has a serious log jam at the PG position. That doesn't mean that team should dump them for nothing. When you buy a new vehicle what happens to the old one? You don't trade it to some kid on the side of the street for half the Mars bar he's chomping on, you sell it and try get back it's market value. I think Calderon and #5 for Flynn, (Webster/Ridnour and Derrick Williams is still very one sided. Most people are saying Williams will be an all-star. Let me paraphrase the proposal again:

                              Outbound
                              • An aging PG who can't defend, who has lost a step and is owed almost $20M over the next two season
                              • #5 pick, which is far worse than the #2 pick given that the consensus appears to be that the whole draft is a crap shoot after #2.


                              Inbound
                              • Jonny Flynn, the 6th overall pick two years ago who has as much talent as any PG in the 2011 draft.
                              • Webster/Ridnour, both servicable bench players.
                              • Derrick Williams, a guy who many are suggesting has big time talent will probably be an all-star.
                              All valid points and I didn't mean to underestimate the value of Flynn/Ridnour/Webster. On the other hand though, it's hard to get full market value for something when all potential buyers know you're at least a little bit desperate to get rid of it. To have that much salary sitting on the bench, not even all 2nd stringers, in a league that is almost guaranteed to get more financially restrictive, is going to cause at least a little desperation!

                              It really will come down to a few points that none of us are privy to:
                              1. How highly does Minny regard Calderon as a veteran and a mentor to Rubio?
                              2. How desperate is Minny to shed salary?
                              3. What other offers is Minny getting for any/all of #2 pick, Flynn, Ridnour and Webster?
                              *** the last two points are the true determining factors in setting the market value for Minny's players

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                See the thing is, why would they be desperate so move Flynn to get back an older, higher priced PG? There will be multiple teams who want him and I don't really think a team who really wants him is going to low ball the Wolves and watch as they seal a better deal with someone else. Wouldn't that first team make a better counter offer? Who knows, maybe then the second team might counter that offer because they also really want him. Before you know it, they're at market value for Flynn. A hypothetical situation that could play out. I think it's more realistic then assuming the Wolves are boxed into a corner with no one is bidding on Flynn besides the Raptors.

                                CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                                1. How highly does Minny regard Calderon as a veteran and a mentor to Rubio?
                                I personally think it's illogical to short change their own team to bring in a guy who at the end of the day probably isn't going to make a long lasting impact on their franchise. It would no doubt be a nice to have in making Rubio feel more at home.

                                CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                                2. How desperate is Minny to shed salary?
                                There are many articles that show the Wolves having one of the highest amounts of spending money in the league come this summer. I don't think desperation is a warranted emotion in their camp.

                                CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                                3. What other offers is Minny getting for any/all of #2 pick, Flynn, Ridnour and Webster?
                                Why do they move the #2 at all? They could move either one of those guys without touching the #2. They've come out and said that they're not moving the #2 unless they get an outstanding offer. All I've seen in here are trade offers that wouldn't even pass in NBA 2k11.

                                Flynn is a really promising young PG. Somebody is going to offer them something fair for him. It was reported that multiple teams are interested.

                                Why do they need to move Ridnour at all? Minnesota is going to need a good reserve PG and I'm not sure why anyone has it in their heads that guy is Calderon or no one.

                                Webster? Who cares? He's more marketable this off-season than last off-season. I mean he's healthy now instead of coming off of back surgery. He had a great close to the season as well. Last year they managed to get him for Ryan Gomes. If they got a piece like that back now I'm sure they wouldn't be broken up about it.

                                Comment

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