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DeMar DeRozan vs. Rip Hamilton

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  • #91
    Axel wrote: View Post
    I thought you said you weren't continuing this discussion?

    The comment from your original post was: "So I'm really not sure why DeMar wouldn't be able to improve his 3-ball as well." To me that is a statement that Demar should be able to improve his 3PT shot because Rip was able to, thus using Rip's career path as a starting point for Demar's trajectory. If I'm wrong, that's cool, but it certainly comes across that way.

    Like I said above, Rider has many statistical similarities to Demar, and was really a better scorer yet couldn't cut it. Someone earlier, Craiger maybe (I can't be bothered to go back and look) said that you were taking an exception (Rip) and discounting the norm. There are likely hundreds of players in the last 20 years, who could be similar to Derozan, and many of them would have ended up well below Rip. You're right, as far as we know, Derozan is a stand up guy and wont make the same bad decisions as JR Rider did, but there are still lots of other guys who didn't make all those bad decisions and ended up in roughly the same place.

    You can't cherry pick the one player and say that is how this guy will develop, and you also can't wait for a guy to shoot 500+ 3s in his career to determine if he can shoot.

    As to the bolded above, you can basically say that about every player on the team (less iso). ISO offence should be dead. It should have left the NBA with Allen Iverson. If any player on the Raps is in an iso play-set this season, I will facepalm. It is a terrible way to score. Using screens and lots of off-ball movement (which is all the Pistons did with Rip) should be the staple of every guard/forward in the league.
    Bingo.

    I look forward to watching the Spurs for this very reason.

    I said at the end of last year that Casey needs more off ball and ball movement.

    Comment


    • #92
      Axel wrote:
      I thought you said you weren't continuing this discussion?

      The comment from your original post was: "So I'm really not sure why DeMar wouldn't be able to improve his 3-ball as well." To me that is a statement that Demar should be able to improve his 3PT shot because Rip was able to, thus using Rip's career path as a starting point for Demar's trajectory. If I'm wrong, that's cool, but it certainly comes across that way.
      That is not what I said at all. Just because I said I don't know why DeMar wouldn't be able to improve his 3 "as well" doesn't mean I'm saying he's following Rip's career trajectory. I'm just taking note of the fact that Rip was able to improve his 3 6 seasons into his career, so it's not impossible that DeMar could improve as well. Was I saying he would shoot 40% at some point? No. Did I say he would be a career 37% shooter? No. Don't put words in my mouth please.

      Like I said above, Rider has many statistical similarities to Demar, and was really a better scorer yet couldn't cut it. Someone earlier, Craiger maybe (I can't be bothered to go back and look) said that you were taking an exception (Rip) and discounting the norm. There are likely hundreds of players in the last 20 years, who could be similar to Derozan, and many of them would have ended up well below Rip. You're right, as far as we know, Derozan is a stand up guy and wont make the same bad decisions as JR Rider did, but there are still lots of other guys who didn't make all those bad decisions and ended up in roughly the same place.
      I'm not even really sure what you mean by "well below Rip". Rip conveniently got to play on a championship level team. If he hadn't been traded from Washington, he'd likely be viewed the same way DeRozan is now (guy that puts up empty stats on a bad team). Since he played on a championship team, he's considered a high BBIQ player, winner, leader and strong contributor to a top team. Where you play has a big effect on how you are perceived. Richard Jefferson on paper was better than Rip and DeRozan, but he never really won anything so he's not highly regarded for example. Not his fault, just the situations he was in.

      I think we would've seen some evidence of this if DeMar had been traded to the Clippers for Bledsoe like it was rumored this offseason. All of a sudden if he's putting up that same 17-18ppg on a title contender, people around the league are going to put him on a higher pedestal. Zach Randolph is a good example of this btw.

      You can't cherry pick the one player and say that is how this guy will develop, and you also can't wait for a guy to shoot 500+ 3s in his career to determine if he can shoot.
      You are putting words in my mouth. I did not say DeRozan would develop how Rip did. All I said is that Rip's 5th season (his championship season) statistics and DeRozan's 4th season statistics and contracts (by percentage of salary cap) are very similar, and the two had very similar strengths and skillsets on the court and like to operate in the same areas. I mentioned that Rip was able to become an elite 3pt shooter later on despite being terrible/mediocre for his first 5 seasons, so it's not unrealistic to say that DeRozan COULD do the same. That's not saying he'll have the same career, it's saying that he COULD make improvements.

      And even if he didn't, he'd still be statistically a notch below a SG that played for a championship caliber team.

      As to the bolded above, you can basically say that about every player on the team (less iso). ISO offence should be dead. It should have left the NBA with Allen Iverson. If any player on the Raps is in an iso play-set this season, I will facepalm. It is a terrible way to score. Using screens and lots of off-ball movement (which is all the Pistons did with Rip) should be the staple of every guard/forward in the league.
      Yes you can say it about any player. But certain players are basically never asked to isolate or even dribble the ball by their teams and their efficiency increases as a result. People love how efficient Kawhi Leonard is, but turn back the clock and put him in DeRozan's role for the last few seasons and see how quickly perception of him changes.

      Comment


      • #93
        Matt52 wrote: View Post
        Bingo.

        I look forward to watching the Spurs for this very reason.

        I said at the end of last year that Casey needs more off ball and ball movement.
        I think we're all in agreement on this...

        Comment


        • #94
          Xixak wrote: View Post
          That is not what I said at all. Just because I said I don't know why DeMar wouldn't be able to improve his 3 "as well" doesn't mean I'm saying he's following Rip's career trajectory. I'm just taking note of the fact that Rip was able to improve his 3 6 seasons into his career, so it's not impossible that DeMar could improve as well. Was I saying he would shoot 40% at some point? No. Did I say he would be a career 37% shooter? No. Don't put words in my mouth please.
          Ok, I don't get you. I quote you word for word, you then say that's not what you're saying, then proceed to say the very thing you tell me you aren't saying!!

          Xixak wrote: View Post
          You are putting words in my mouth. I did not say DeRozan would develop how Rip did. All I said is that Rip's 5th season (his championship season) statistics and DeRozan's 4th season statistics and contracts (by percentage of salary cap) are very similar, and the two had very similar strengths and skillsets on the court and like to operate in the same areas. I mentioned that Rip was able to become an elite 3pt shooter later on despite being terrible/mediocre for his first 5 seasons, so it's not unrealistic to say that DeRozan COULD do the same. That's not saying he'll have the same career, it's saying that he COULD make improvements.
          I don't see how I'm putting words in your mouth. I'm quoting your posts. Maybe you are arguing about semantics at this point. Career path, career trajectory is really the same thing as saying make similar improvements. Either way you slice it, Rip's development has a much to do with Demar's as does how much Captain Crunch Nilanka has in his cupboard.


          Xixak wrote: View Post
          And even if he didn't, he'd still be statistically a notch below a SG that played for a championship caliber team.
          If this is the entire point of your original post, then my only response is "so what?" They are very different players in how they play and the teams they play on are so completely different. Like Nilanka pointed out, just because they hit the long two doesn't eliminate the fact that they are very different players. If you're overall end game is point out that Demar could start on a championship caliber team just because he can hit the midrange 2, then sure, he could. If the rest of the team was comprised of Defensive Player of the Year caliber Center, Finals MVP caliber veteran point guard who can hit the trey and post-up, One of the best perimeter defenders in the league with an improving jump shot, A veteran rugged inside-out scorer who can rebound and play lockdown D from the post as powerforward, An excellent bench and coaching staff. Then sure, Demar can help out. Until then, he's just another inefficient one dimensional volume scorer.
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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          • #95
            Ok so Rip was a replaceable player on the Pistons championship squad, gotcha.

            Comment


            • #96
              The Raptors best season with Demar, was his rookie season where they didn't run any plays for him and his only job was to cut to the basket and slam dunk. Since, then he has added a respectable mid-range game and free throw shooting. And he was super happy when they got Rudy, since Demar wasn't double teamed anymore and he could use his skills and play his basketball, without trying to be Kobe.

              Demar isn't even remotely the teams problem as long as he cuts down his turnovers he's playing to his skillset and isn't doing too much. But, he can't be your top two scorer and he can't be a primary or secondary ball handler.

              The trick for this team on offense next season, is can Lowry and Gay make the correct decisions with the ball in their hands? Can they get the ball to Amir in a pick and roll? Can they get the ball to Valanciunas when he is in position close to the basket and has a favourable match-up? Can Gay stop playing iso ball?

              Demar isn't a problem, he's only a problem when he's relied on to be more than who he is. He's a skilled system player he isn't a star.
              -"You can’t run from me. I mean, my heart don’t bleed Kool-Aid."
              -"“I ain’t no diva! I don’t have no blond hair, red hair. I’m Reggie Evans.”

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              • #97
                Ah, now who is putting words in the others mouth. At no point did I say that Rip was easily replaceable. What I said is that Demar would need the rest of those pieces to win, so how is that a knock on Rip? You've obviously completely missed the point (again).
                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                • #98
                  Axel wrote: View Post
                  Ah, now who is putting words in the others mouth. At no point did I say that Rip was easily replaceable. What I said is that Demar would need the rest of those pieces to win, so how is that a knock on Rip? You've obviously completely missed the point (again).
                  Alright, congrats.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Here's an equally irrelevant comparison.

                    Age GS MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% 3PA

                    21 81 3093 8.4 17.9 0.4 1.5 4.3 6.0 1.2 2.6 3.8 7.4 2.3 0.3 3.8 3.7 21.6 .472 .288 .710 125
                    23 82 3013 6.5 14.7 0.4 1.4 4.2 5.1 0.6 3.2 3.8 2.4 0.9 0.3 1.8 2.1 17.7 .445 .283 .831 120

                    Demar's stats (2nd line) are very comparable to the player above. Playing almost equal playing time, similar scoring, and nearly identical 3PA (both per game and season total) and %. Player 1 had more assists but also more turnovers, so that's a wash.

                    Player 1 made it to the Hall of Fame, so then Demar can improve his game because Player 1 did too.

                    Player 1 is also known as Isiah Lord Thomas III.
                    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                    • Axel wrote: View Post
                      Here's an equally irrelevant comparison.

                      Age GS MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% 3PA

                      21 81 3093 8.4 17.9 0.4 1.5 4.3 6.0 1.2 2.6 3.8 7.4 2.3 0.3 3.8 3.7 21.6 .472 .288 .710 125
                      23 82 3013 6.5 14.7 0.4 1.4 4.2 5.1 0.6 3.2 3.8 2.4 0.9 0.3 1.8 2.1 17.7 .445 .283 .831 120

                      Demar's stats (2nd line) are very comparable to the player above. Playing almost equal playing time, similar scoring, and nearly identical 3PA (both per game and season total) and %. Player 1 had more assists but also more turnovers, so that's a wash.

                      Player 1 made it to the Hall of Fame, so then Demar can improve his game because Player 1 did too.

                      Player 1 is also known as Isiah Lord Thomas III.
                      Axel, the comparison is so off.
                      Not only did you use surface stats to compare, youre comparing a PG with an SG, so no upped TO's and Asts are not 'just a wash' they are systematic differences between the players and what they do on the court. I think you were trying to get a point across about how arbitrary it is to compare by stats, but your point has failed because this comparison is not even close to the Rip/Demar comparison of the OP.
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                      • enlightenment wrote: View Post
                        Axel, the comparison is so off.
                        Not only did you use surface stats to compare, youre comparing a PG with an SG, so no upped TO's and Asts are not 'just a wash' they are systematic differences between the players and what they do on the court. I think you were trying to get a point across about how arbitrary it is to compare by stats, but your point has failed because this comparison is not even close to the Rip/Demar comparison of the OP.
                        As the title said, "equally irrelevant comparison".

                        The point is that similar stats mean nothing. The players are nothing alike, and that applies to both sets of comparisons. The teams they play on are nothing alike. The OP is as equally irrelevant as this one.
                        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                        • Axel wrote: View Post
                          As the title said, "equally irrelevant comparison".

                          The point is that similar stats mean nothing. The players are nothing alike, and that applies to both sets of comparisons. The teams they play on are nothing alike. The OP is as equally irrelevant as this one.
                          I wouldn't go that far - but based on how the thread has evolved I'd say you are correct.

                          There is a good comparison to be had for Rip and DD's mid-range game. But in the end that is where the comparison should have ended.

                          Comment


                          • Axel wrote: View Post
                            As the title said, "equally irrelevant comparison".

                            The point is that similar stats mean nothing. The players are nothing alike, and that applies to both sets of comparisons. The teams they play on are nothing alike. The OP is as equally irrelevant as this one.
                            This is my contention when comparing stats of any two players on different teams, whether the players are alike or not. There are so many varying factors that affect the stats that stat geeking is silliness to me.

                            Comment


                            • Axel wrote: View Post
                              Here's an equally irrelevant comparison.

                              Age GS MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% 3PA

                              21 81 3093 8.4 17.9 0.4 1.5 4.3 6.0 1.2 2.6 3.8 7.4 2.3 0.3 3.8 3.7 21.6 .472 .288 .710 125
                              23 82 3013 6.5 14.7 0.4 1.4 4.2 5.1 0.6 3.2 3.8 2.4 0.9 0.3 1.8 2.1 17.7 .445 .283 .831 120

                              Demar's stats (2nd line) are very comparable to the player above. Playing almost equal playing time, similar scoring, and nearly identical 3PA (both per game and season total) and %. Player 1 had more assists but also more turnovers, so that's a wash.

                              Player 1 made it to the Hall of Fame, so then Demar can improve his game because Player 1 did too.

                              Player 1 is also known as Isiah Lord Thomas III.
                              Umm what....

                              Even just looking at stats, it's pretty clear that player 1 is the far superior player.... 4 more points on a higher field goal percentage, more than 3 times as many assists, more than twice as many steals. And also a PER of 19 compared to 15 that you conveniently left out. Oh yeah, and the fact that player 1 is a PG and player 2 is a SG...

                              You also very conveniently chose to compare Isiah's second season to DeMar's 4th. If you looked at Isiah's 4th season where he averaged 20-13-4, it'd be even more clear that these are not even close to the same caliber of player. Not to mention the fact that since Thomas was a ball-dominant PG his playing style was nothing like DeMar's.

                              Talk about trying to force an argument, you've got to be kidding me with that.

                              Comment


                              • Xixak wrote: View Post
                                Umm what....

                                Even just looking at stats, it's pretty clear that player 1 is the far superior player.... 4 more points on a higher field goal percentage, more than 3 times as many assists, more than twice as many steals. And also a PER of 19 compared to 15 that you conveniently left out. Oh yeah, and the fact that player 1 is a PG and player 2 is a SG...

                                You also very conveniently chose to compare Isiah's second season to DeMar's 4th. If you looked at Isiah's 4th season where he averaged 20-13-4, it'd be even more clear that these are not even close to the same caliber of player. Not to mention the fact that since Thomas was a ball-dominant PG his playing style was nothing like DeMar's.

                                Talk about trying to force an argument, you've got to be kidding me with that.
                                Sarcasm. Apparently you don't get it until you're an adult.
                                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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