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  • bobbybutler wrote: View Post
    Defensive Rating, ON/OFF/NET

    Noah-101.5/106.0/-4.5
    Boozer -105.6/98.5/+7.0
    Andrea-111.2/109.1/+2.0
    Amir-107.2/112.6/-5.4

    Net is the key number. Boozer derense has a larger negative impact for his team than Andrea does.

    Raptors have a better DRR than the Bulls.

    15 minutes of Bargnani is better than 30 minutes of Boozer sums up their reaction. They think Andrea can help space the floor for Rose, Deng and Noah. In two years they will replace him with Nikola Mirotic.
    That is interesting.

    But lets look at net total points.

    In 30% of Toronto's minutes played, Bargnani on the court has resulted in minus 77 points.

    In 59% of Chicago's minutes played, Boozer on the court has resulted in minus 33 points.

    Putting that in perspective in half the time on court Bargnani has resulted in a net negative effect of over double the points. So I VERY MUCH DISAGREE that 15 minutes of Bargnani is better than 30 minutes of Boozer.

    Boozer's results are hardly spectacular but he is still a major SUPERSTAR in comparison to Bargnani.

    This deal makes the Raptors better and adds talent. Wait to the last minute to squeeze out a draft pick if possible but, whether that happens or not, lets do it Bryan!

    Comment


    • For years we have seen Colangelo attempt to build a roster similar to what he has in Phoenix…a fast paced, highly revved offensive team to make up for defensive inability. Whether this was true or not it seemed to be a relatively recognizable pattern.

      Over the last two years we have started to see some changes in terms of how the team is being built, and this hypothetical Boozer/Bargnani deal has got me thinking. The question that has been being asked is what the ceiling of this roster is.

      I decided for the heck of it to compare the Raptors, as would be constructed after this Boozer deal, to the 2010-2011 Chicago Bulls.

      PG: Rose is clearly head and shoulders above Lowry. The hope is that Lowry could become a Rose-lite type of player. Attacking off the dribble, tough defense, and the ability to use the 3-pointer as a significant weapon. With the swap of Robinson and Lucas, the Bulls would be re-acquiring their old back-up. I think it’s fair to say that Nate is a better-rounded player to Lucas.

      SG: This was always Chicago’s weakest spot: Bogans, Brewer, Butler. They were not slouches, but I would argue that DeRozan and Ross have higher ceilings than any of those three.

      SF: Gay or Deng? Once again, I think that Gay has the higher ceiling then Deng…certainly not better now, but has the opportunity to be. Back-ups: Fields or James Johnson? I take Fields

      PF: Boozer is currently playing better than he did two years ago. Could Amir be our Gibson? A back-up energy bigman who can guard rather capably both frontcourt spots?

      C: Noah is the player who Valanciunas is compared to most frequently…still a lot of development, but could get there or beyond. And clearly Asik is a huge upgrade/advantage over Gray.

      Coach: Casey came in with a similar reputation to Thibs…so there’s hope.

      Please be clear, I am not arguing that the Raptors would be equal to the Bulls…but I think they could be a tougher team then I at least have been thinking…I hope.

      I’m open to the Boozer/Bargnani swap…either way the Raptors are financially handcuffed for the foreseeable future. I’m still not a fan of Boozer or Robinson, and it would be strange to route for them. But if it brings some success then that would be easier to swallow.

      I would agree with Matt52 though…I would love for the Raptors to try and extort the Bulls for something like a first round pick. After all, how much is saving all that money worth to Chicago? What’s the going rate for mid-late first round pick?
      http://twitter.com/m_shantz

      Comment


      • tucas wrote: View Post
        I personally like the trade but I'm hoping I'm not fooled by it. There are a few things that come to mind when I see it
        1. Tom Thibodeau is one of the best defensive coaches in the league, while Casey is aswell Thibs is on another level IMO. Could boozers DRting be inflated by the coach.
        2. Probably my worst concern is injury. No doubt boozer>bargs but if boozer gets injured which he has a large history of, is Nate Robinson+16 Mil./yr> Bargnani and Lucas?

        3. Financial- probably the least of my concerns but if I'm not mistaken if this trade happens raptors lose the MLE and only get the mini MLE. Correct? This limits the raptors from getting any better.

        Would they be a playoff team? Yes.
        Would they be contenders?
        Probably not.
        Would they have the flexibility to become contenders?
        Definitely not.


        This trade puts us in an Atlanta situation. Constantly in the playoffs but never good enough to be considered a contender.
        Again I'm all for this trade. Raptors won big time talent for talent. But they're are so many ways that this trade could end up hurting us, I find myself 2nd guessing it.
        How many games has Bargnani played the last 3 years? Injury histories are pretty even and maybe slightly in Boozer's favor given recent history.

        How does keeping Bargnani give the Raptors flexibility to become a contender? They are still a tax team with Bargnani and lets not kid ourselves that there is a better deal out there for Bargnani. If there was, he'd be gone.

        This situation might put the Raptors in an Atlanta situation for 2 seasons but given the history of the Raptors, is that a bad thing? In 2 seasons you still have the main guys on the team in their prime (Rudy/Lowry) while the young guys are in their prime (DD/possible Amir/Fields) with the young guys (JV/TR/QA) with 3 years experience under their belt. Who knows what that will result in? Also making the playoffs this season adds another draft pick so include him. Finally you have a $17M expiring conctract trade chip in super luxury tax era.

        Anyway you slice it, this deal is a no brainer in my very unhumble opinion.

        Comment


        • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
          I get it. Chicago doesn't want to pay the tax this season...but you make it sound like if TO doesn't take this deal, Chicago will unload Boozer to someone else and fix their tax problems for this year and going forward......

          If this is the only deal they've really got for Boozer, why should we care if they end up paying the luxury tax?? If they can't trade Boozer, and end up paying the tax, they will still be trying to unload him so they don't end up doing so again next year. None of this affects Toronto in any way, at least if BC decides he wants to wait. I feel like you basically don't think this deal will still be here in the summer...or that it will be worse??? I don't feel it's that huge a difference maker in the short run (could care less between just missing or squeaking into the playoffs to get smashed by Miami), so if it's more for the next 2 years anyway, what is the risk of waiting???

          I mean, if this is Chicago's preferred deal, how much worse must their other options be...if they have any...
          And if this is the only deal on the table for Bargnani, what other options do Toronto have to unload him?

          Chicago is making a basketball trade based on finances.
          Toronto is making a basketball trade based on basketball.

          Comment


          • the funny thing is that the boozer beehive is being stirred up again but the actual source of the story, while it is a new article. just makes mention of the original story from a week ago...that got this whole thing started. I guess we have to put our "trade for rudy gay!!" energy somewhere. Should be an interesting week. Any thoughts on whether general managers tend to go to the all star game making it sort of like the baseball winter meetings for trade talks?

            Comment


            • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
              If they trade Jennings, they're blowing it up. They might be willing to let go of Ilyasova for Bargs for the shorter commitment, and, as we all know, if you're going to suck for a year or two, who better to feature than Bargs?
              That made my afternoon! It's funny, because it's true. But, that's exactly why I like the deal. Bargs is basically an untradable contract--unless a team plans to intentionally tank. If a penny-pinching owner is willing to take him in a trade for an overpaid, but serviceable big, I say do it. Right now we have Bargs, Gray and Acy as our backup bigs and our two starters foul like crazy. The other names that people keep mentioning are pie in the sky unless BC is clever enough to fleece some opposing GM.

              Comment


              • Shantz wrote: View Post
                For years we have seen Colangelo attempt to build a roster similar to what he has in Phoenix…a fast paced, highly revved offensive team to make up for defensive inability. Whether this was true or not it seemed to be a relatively recognizable pattern.

                Over the last two years we have started to see some changes in terms of how the team is being built, and this hypothetical Boozer/Bargnani deal has got me thinking. The question that has been being asked is what the ceiling of this roster is.

                I decided for the heck of it to compare the Raptors, as would be constructed after this Boozer deal, to the 2010-2011 Chicago Bulls.

                PG: Rose is clearly head and shoulders above Lowry. The hope is that Lowry could become a Rose-lite type of player. Attacking off the dribble, tough defense, and the ability to use the 3-pointer as a significant weapon. With the swap of Robinson and Lucas, the Bulls would be re-acquiring their old back-up. I think it’s fair to say that Nate is a better-rounded player to Lucas.

                SG: This was always Chicago’s weakest spot: Bogans, Brewer, Butler. They were not slouches, but I would argue that DeRozan and Ross have higher ceilings than any of those three.

                SF: Gay or Deng? Once again, I think that Gay has the higher ceiling then Deng…certainly not better now, but has the opportunity to be. Back-ups: Fields or James Johnson? I take Fields

                PF: Boozer is currently playing better than he did two years ago. Could Amir be our Gibson? A back-up energy bigman who can guard rather capably both frontcourt spots?

                C: Noah is the player who Valanciunas is compared to most frequently…still a lot of development, but could get there or beyond. And clearly Asik is a huge upgrade/advantage over Gray.

                Coach: Casey came in with a similar reputation to Thibs…so there’s hope.

                Please be clear, I am not arguing that the Raptors would be equal to the Bulls…but I think they could be a tougher team then I at least have been thinking…I hope.

                I’m open to the Boozer/Bargnani swap…either way the Raptors are financially handcuffed for the foreseeable future. I’m still not a fan of Boozer or Robinson, and it would be strange to route for them. But if it brings some success then that would be easier to swallow.

                I would agree with Matt52 though…I would love for the Raptors to try and extort the Bulls for something like a first round pick. After all, how much is saving all that money worth to Chicago? What’s the going rate for mid-late first round pick?
                That's an interesting perspective but the only flaw is that this is a star driven league and 2 half stars do not equal one star. Rose is a megastar and he made that team what it was making everyone else better. That said, I'll take the 4th seed next year.

                Comment


                • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  Not when the alternative is spending $11M per year on an underachieving, on-court deadbeat. The difference is $4M per year plus any tax and the MLE going from full to mini.
                  Yes, the world of X and NOT X, in which other options do not exist!

                  I am more or less indifferent to this trade because I believe it's trading one problem for a different problem. I believe Chicago will have an easier time solving the Bargnani problem than Toronto Boozer's going forward but that's just my opinion based on volatility of stats. I am not a fan of Boozer but it's hard to imagine Bargnani is not just a distraction which needs a quick resolution.

                  I am kind of sad thinking the accelerated rebuilding might result in Fields, Gay, and Boozer, three overpaid players. Yes, we are a better team but unless JV and/or Ross develop very quickly, I can see us having very little flexibility to help the team in two years.

                  Comment


                  • maybe MLSE isn't willing to do this deal.. they said they'd go into the luxury for the right deal.. I assumed back then that the deal was Gasol.. I wonder if they just don't see this as the right deal especially if they have to pay luxury tax for 2 seasons instead of 1 with gasol

                    Comment


                    • For all the Hollinger fans:

                      http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine/?tradeId=agacaan

                      Chicago:
                      Bargnani 12.3 PER
                      Lucas 15.0 PER

                      Toronto:
                      Boozer 17.1 PER
                      Robinson 18.5 PER

                      Trade results in +5 wins for Toronto and -11 wins for Chicago.


                      Based on Robinson's production, he might be the hidden gem here - with the major assumption that he has matured and accepts he is a good backup PG in the NBA.

                      Comment


                      • Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                        Yes, the world of X and NOT X, in which other options do not exist!

                        I am more or less indifferent to this trade because I believe it's trading one problem for a different problem. I believe Chicago will have an easier time solving the Bargnani problem than Toronto Boozer's going forward but that's just my opinion based on volatility of stats. I am not a fan of Boozer but it's hard to imagine Bargnani is not just a distraction which needs a quick resolution.

                        I am kind of sad thinking the accelerated rebuilding might result in Fields, Gay, and Boozer, three overpaid players. Yes, we are a better team but unless JV and/or Ross develop very quickly, I can see us having very little flexibility to help the team in two years.
                        What are the other options with Bargnani? Amnesty is it - unless you count holding on to him for 2 years to trade as an expiring contract a viable option. Who is lining up to take him on? Get real here people. Bargnani has NO value.

                        There is just $19M in committed salary in 2 years for 3 players: DD, TR, JV. Acquiring Boozer does not change that. So at this point in time I don't know where you come to a conclusion about very little flexibility in 2 years.
                        Last edited by mcHAPPY; Fri Feb 15, 2013, 06:41 PM.

                        Comment


                        • if this is the best trade option, I would be fine with doing it.. just wonder what ownership is thinking.. they might rather keep bargs or trade him for scraps than go into luxury for someone not named gasol if that's what they had their sights set on

                          Comment


                          • FoxMachine wrote: View Post
                            if this is the best trade option, I would be fine with doing it.. just wonder what ownership is thinking.. they might rather keep bargs or trade him for scraps than go into luxury for someone not named gasol if that's what they had their sights set on
                            Probably that they need to add some talent to the roster and W's to the win column given there are supposedly games with only 20K viewers on TV.

                            *EDIT*

                            20K was incorrect but 141K is not much to brag about either.

                            http://canadiansportsfan.wordpress.c...egory/ratings/

                            Good site to look through ratings.
                            Last edited by mcHAPPY; Fri Feb 15, 2013, 06:50 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              And if this is the only deal on the table for Bargnani, what other options do Toronto have to unload him?

                              Chicago is making a basketball trade based on finances.
                              Toronto is making a basketball trade based on basketball.
                              Again, I just don't see why this wouldn't be available in the summer. Getting Boozer makes us a 5 or 6 seed next year(maybe?? a lot of Hakws comparisons, but CHI,IND, NYK, and MIA will be hard to beat for a top 4 spot), but might not even assure us getting into the playoffs this year, and even if we do, the Raps making noise this year (after a shit start and many changes) would be one of the biggest sport miracles in recent memory. If this is the best option still in the summer, sure, take it....

                              Really Matt, I'm just trying to find a reason that this move is measurably better now than in June/July, or why it might not be available at that time??? and I can't think of a reason for either....I'm trying to see a reason to pull the trigger now instead of waiting....

                              Comment


                              • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                                ...I'm trying to see a reason to pull the trigger now instead of waiting....
                                The fans get to see a better brand of basketball? More butts in seats and more eyeballs on the tube?

                                Comment

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