A new take on tanking - opponents of this need not click this thread

[Joey]

I do find it funny that I was able to change Matt's stance on this topic. At the start of the summer he was consistently emphasizing how Gay, DD, Lowry etc needed to go at all costs. But now he only wants to move them if we get good value in return.

Interesting.

Ditto for Axel and CalgaryRapsFan. I'm sure they'll all vehemently deny it now

Better have some of those posts ready as evidence then.

[Xixak]

I think you missed the entire premise of this thread, which is upsetting, since it was specifically directed at people like you.

You're arguing against a concept of tanking that none of the pro-tankers (well 2 actually, per the voting) are advocating. The reason so many threads got derailed is because posters like yourself never bothered trying to actually understand the position of the posters you were arguing with. You have a definition in your head of what "tanking" is, but this thread is illustrating that almost none of the pro-tankers consider tanking to be what you are defining it as.

Per your first bold, you agree that the team is not a finished product, which means roster change is necessary. Given the cap situation, roster change can only happen via trade. Given CBA rules, the only way you're going to trade for a high-impact, high-priced player is by trading one away (ie: Gay, DeRozan, Lowry or Johnson - all core pieces). Essentially, you are arguing that in order for the team to be successful, it needs to rebuild/retool/rework/reconstruct the roster... which is exactly the same thing most of the pro-tankers are pushing for!

This thread should really have been an eye-opener for you, to help you understand exactly what the pro-tankers mean when they say they support "tanking"... it's not what you think!

While I actually agree with the premise of this thread. Your bias is beginning to become somewhat annoying.

[Xixak]

I'm saying that the Hawks did tear it down. They traded away their number 1 guy in Joe Johnson for assets. They built around their talented big (Al Horford) while moving good players (Lou Williams for example) in the process to build a competitive team with a balanced roster. They let their inefficient chucking expiring deal go ( who is a far superior defender to anyone we have) and used the cap space they built to acquire Millsap on a very attractive contract.

Build around a promising young big? Trade away the albatross contract? Move away from inefficient chuckers? Bring in assets on friendly deals? Sounds exactly like what many of us are advocating, and exactly what brought Atlanta, again your words, one or two really good players away.


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Actually I don't think it's fair to suggest the Hawks are doing the type of rebuild being suggested in this thread. There's almost no chance that they win less than 41 games this year. And they still picked outside of the lottery in the previous draft.

I think re-signing Teague and Millsap would probably be considered treadmill moves. I mean they could always be traded later if they decide to tank, but as of right now that doesn't look to be the case.

Edit: Also you're making things up. First of all Lou Williams is still on the Hawks lol. Secondly, the Hawks didn't really move their bad contracts out for a ton of value. They got a late first rounder and an assortment of scrubs for Joe Johnson's contract and replaced Smith's deal with Millsap's (while getting nothing in return for Smith directly I might add).

I wouldn't really call Horford a "promising young big" either. He's already in his prime at age 27 and is a known commodity at this point so the term "promising" doesn't really apply (unless you were talking about Nogueira, which you weren't). By the time some of their younger guys like Schroeder, Lucas and Jenkins develop, he'll be too old to be part of their core (and also likely on his way out).

And the result of all these moves isn't a tank, it's a team that's likely going to finish 6th-8th and get stamped out in the first round. I'm not seeing the comparison to what this thread is about.

[mcHAPPY]

I have a question, and im not being sarcastic here, but what would be the reason to tank? If the reason to tank is to get a potential franchise player from the draft (which i really think is the end all be all of tanking), dont we already have that player in Jonas Valanciunas?

This is how I look at the situation:


State of current roster:
The Raptors are not currently a championship contender, they may not even be a playoff contender.
To reach championship contender they have to do it without free agency, without any high draft picks, with their highest paid players not even all-stars let alone all-NBA, and with few value contracts.
The light at the end of the tunnel is a train unless Ross becomes 6th man of the year, JV becomes best C in the league, and DD enters the discussion in the same breath as Kobe, Harden, and Wade (i.e. top 5 SG in the league).

Ownership:
I truly believe Bell/Rogers want a championship team from a content perspective and to increase the value of the franchise.
I truly believe if given the opportunity to compete for a championship, the luxury tax is a non-issue because the profits will be there regardless.

Management
I have the utmost faith in Ujiri's basketball decisions.
I've been down that road with BC but Masai is different.
Listen to an interview and look at his track record and it speaks for itself.

JV:
As great as JV's potential appears to be, he is not a guarantee - few things ever are.
With that said, JV is at the minimum a starting C for a long time in the league and that is the hardest position to fill - and that is a terrific start.

Asset Accumulation:
Another assumption with tanking is you actually get value for the current members of the Raptors core minus JV.
That might be draft picks or prospects.
That might be possible or not but I think you can get prospects and/or picks for Lowry, DD, and Gay.

This years draft at the top:
The reason to tank would be to get as high as you can with the Raptors own pick.
This years draft has more elite talent than many years past.
I think you get a great player in the top 8.
What if Raps had multiple picks? Could they move up?

Three drafts to find star(s) or the assets to trade for one/them:
The Raptors would have the 2014 draft and the 2015 draft to add high draft picks.
Raptors already have 2 first round picks in 2016.
The drafted players might be stars or they might be used to trade for one.

Draft is the way to build with Weltman and MU:
Proven track record of making most of picks - regardless of position.

Free agency in 2015, 2016, 2017:
The Raptors have a lot of money coming off the books in 2015.
2 years of MU/TL and a year and a half of Drake might change the perspective of the Raptors.
They could be active in 2015 FA.
They could also be active in 2016 with the only big contract likely to be JV's extension.

Ability to go in to the luxury tax 2017 onwards:
Assuming stars were obtained via draft or trade, Bird Rights would be obtained allowing the Raptors to extend ending contracts (rookie or otherwise).
Raptors given market and ownership will never face a Harden moment as OKC did.

A 10 year window:
Assuming the elite talent was obtained (big assumption I know), the Raptors would have a 10 year window to dominate.
Current core will never dominate/compete for championship and likely face rebuilding in another 4 years (max) anyways.
In 4 years JV is entering his prime.
Nice to have JV in his prime with a championship team vs. rebuilding for 2-3 years and having him in his late 20's as an UFA - you know like the situation with Bosh or LBJ or how about current situations likely to arise with Aldridge and Love.

Last but certainly not least:

The last 5 years stench still hangs over this roster:
This roster's core is still built around a certain Italian.
Time to rip it down to the studs.

[Xixak]

Matt52, could you explain why DeRozan needs to be moved in order to rebuild?

Wouldn't it make sense to first move an older player like Amir? Or would that be the wrong move?

[mcHAPPY]

Matt52, could you explain why DeRozan needs to be moved in order to rebuild?

Wouldn't it make sense to first move an older player like Amir? Or would that be the wrong move?

No offense here but despite the different view points I always respected your opinion since your ban.

You always back up your claims and do make good points - regardless if I agree or not.

With that said, I lost a bit of respect the last couple of days. It was a mockery of the forums and the discussion that goes on here daily.

I don't feel the urge to explain anything - sorry.

[Xixak]

No offense here but despite the different view points I always respected your opinion since your ban.

You always back up your claims and do make good points - regardless if I agree or not.

With that said, I lost a bit of respect the last couple of days. It was a mockery of the forums and the discussion that goes on here daily.

I don't feel the urge to explain anything - sorry.

Excellent cop out, seriously. I actually feel as though you really don't have the urge to explain.

10/10

[mcHAPPY]

Excellent cop out, seriously. I actually feel as though you really don't have the urge to explain.

10/10

Sorry dude.

You don't have a virtual hissy fit for two days, mock us all, and come back being all serious and grown up expecting others to just accept that, do you?

[mcHAPPY]

I do find it funny that I was able to change Matt's stance on this topic. At the start of the summer he was consistently emphasizing how Gay, DD, Lowry etc needed to go at all costs. But now he only wants to move them if we get good value in return.

Interesting.

Ditto for Axel and CalgaryRapsFan. I'm sure they'll all vehemently deny it now

Really now? It was all you, eh?

Here is the original RaptorsRepublic tank thread: Rebuild or Re-tool?

Note my original stance? Tinker, re-tool.

After reading a lot of posts, I changed my tune about a month later:

I think I have talked myself in to a total rebuild on some conditions.

1) you need to get a top 5 pick this year and one more,
2) you need to get at least two extra 2014 picks (with own 3),
3) you need to get back 1-2 players in the mold of Fields or Amir (< 25 years old proven role players that are highly efficient players).
4) you have extra cap space for 2014-15 season to be a facilitator in deals or take on salary for tax fearing teams (for a price).


It is not very often a team enters in to a rebuild with the hardest piece already in place - that of course being the C and JV.

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...l=1#post212416

I don't recall ever advocating throwing guys away for nothing. From nearly one year ago: Dump your shit for prospects and picks


But sure, pat yourself on the back if you please. I'm not sure why having an influence over my opinion, an anonymous Raptor fan online, would actually matter to you.

[Xixak]

Really now? It was all you, eh?

Here is the original RaptorsRepublic tank thread: Rebuild or Re-tool?

Note my original stance? Tinker, re-tool.

After reading a lot of posts, I changed my tune about a month later:



I don't recall ever advocating throwing guys away for nothing. From nearly one year ago: Dump your shit for prospects and picks


But sure, pat yourself on the back if you please. I'm not sure why having an influence over my opinion, an anonymous Raptor fan online, would actually matter to you.

Sorry what? I thought you weren't gonna respond.

[JimiCliff]

Sorry what? I thought you weren't gonna respond.

It's not hard to see the difference between what he did respond to and what he didn't.

[Axel]

I do find it funny that I was able to change Matt's stance on this topic. At the start of the summer he was consistently emphasizing how Gay, DD, Lowry etc needed to go at all costs. But now he only wants to move them if we get good value in return.

Interesting.

Ditto for Axel and CalgaryRapsFan. I'm sure they'll all vehemently deny it now

Interesting theory. Now let's actually look at some facts:

Forum Thread: Would you trade Gay for the #1 pick in 2013?
http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...ay-for-1/page6

Post #116 - June 6th, 2013, Xixax wrote:
If this was actually on the table you do it. Gives us the perfect avenue to rebuild the team.

I'd love to then take the #1 and trade down and force the other team to pick up Fields' deal. Select Burke at the new spot.

Ship out/amnesty Bargnani as planned as well.

Then you look at moving Lowry for a 2014 pick and tank the season in order to be in contention for Parker/Wiggins, and maybe a guy like McAdoo with the pick you trade Lowry for.

Burke
DeRozan
Wiggins
McAdoo
Valanciunas

~~~

So you think we're the ones who've changed positions? We've long be supporters of a roster overhaul. You seem to be the one flip-floping from positions and mental states.


~~~

Here's a post I made July 9th, in the ReBuild or ReTool Thread, answering the questions off the main page
1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?
2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?
3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?
4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?
5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?

1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?
Rebuild is continuous, you never stop so you shouldn't have to start it. We need to balance our roster better and acquire better shooters. I'm more inclined to tear apart the roster, so for the purpose of this question "rebuild".

2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?
No one is untradeable. I'd trade JV for the right package, but he's the closest thing to untouchable.

3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?
Trades are necessary to even be able to consider free agency. Assets are needed to speed up the draft progress. Therefore, trades are the logical next step.

4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?
Current team as is, post-Barg's trade and Stone signing with no further moves, is likely somewhere between 7th-10th in the east. Health has to be a big concern especially at the PG spot with only the unproven Stone as a back-up to Lowry.

5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?
Nope. Not a chance.

~~~~
So how have I changed my position?

[Puffer]

This is how I look at the situation:


State of current roster:....

Pretty cogent explanation/listing of the steps required to move the Raps from where they are to championship/contending status. Might be some stuff to quibble with here, but there can't be too many serious arguments.

We will know more by the all-star break. Does Ross live up to the promise of the last few preseason games (holds breath)? Does JV actually show signs of becoming a top three center in the East next year? Is the "new" DeMar real? Can Buycks or Stone be an effective backup PG?

I believe that Gay and Lowry could, between them, generate a total of 3 decent (mid level or better) first round picks in 2014/15/16 and am confident Masai and staff could find value in them

If all of the above is true, the Raps could still aim for Championship/Contender status while keeping Amir/DeRozan (the audience roars, delirious with joy) with a view to having them anchor the 6th and 7th spots in 3-4 years.

There, now everybody is happy.

[Nilanka]

I have a question, and im not being sarcastic here, but what would be the reason to tank? If the reason to tank is to get a potential franchise player from the draft (which i really think is the end all be all of tanking), dont we already have that player in Jonas Valanciunas?

It's uncertain whether Jonas is a "franchise" player yet. Is he a Tim Duncan (who averaged 20 and 12 in his rookie year), or Joakim Noah (who is one of the league's best centres, but not someone to build around)?

[Xixak]

Interesting theory. Now let's actually look at some facts:

Forum Thread: Would you trade Gay for the #1 pick in 2013?
http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...ay-for-1/page6

Post #116 - June 6th, 2013, Xixax wrote:
If this was actually on the table you do it. Gives us the perfect avenue to rebuild the team.

I'd love to then take the #1 and trade down and force the other team to pick up Fields' deal. Select Burke at the new spot.

Ship out/amnesty Bargnani as planned as well.

Then you look at moving Lowry for a 2014 pick and tank the season in order to be in contention for Parker/Wiggins, and maybe a guy like McAdoo with the pick you trade Lowry for.

Burke
DeRozan
Wiggins
McAdoo
Valanciunas

~~~

So you think we're the ones who've changed positions? We've long be supporters of a roster overhaul. You seem to be the one flip-floping from positions and mental states.


~~~

Here's a post I made July 9th, in the ReBuild or ReTool Thread, answering the questions off the main page
1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?
2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?
3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?
4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?
5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?

1. Do the Raptors need to start over and rebuild?
Rebuild is continuous, you never stop so you shouldn't have to start it. We need to balance our roster better and acquire better shooters. I'm more inclined to tear apart the roster, so for the purpose of this question "rebuild".

2. What one player would you be unwilling to part with in a rebuild?
No one is untradeable. I'd trade JV for the right package, but he's the closest thing to untouchable.

3. Is the next step for this team through trades, free agency or the draft?
Trades are necessary to even be able to consider free agency. Assets are needed to speed up the draft progress. Therefore, trades are the logical next step.

4. What is the ceiling of the current team moving forward?
Current team as is, post-Barg's trade and Stone signing with no further moves, is likely somewhere between 7th-10th in the east. Health has to be a big concern especially at the PG spot with only the unproven Stone as a back-up to Lowry.

5. Would you be less inclined to watch a Raptors team next year that is rebuilding, again?
Nope. Not a chance.

~~~~
So how have I changed my position?

Hmm, looks like you flip flopped. I'm not talking about changing positions ON rebuilding. I'm talking about changing your position from "tear down the team at all costs" to "only trade guys if we can get good assets." You guys have assumed my initial stance, which is good because it actually makes sense. Good work.

Also not sure how trading Gay for the #1 pick is any different from what's being suggested in this thread lmao. That would be the definition of getting great asset(s) in return for him.

Notice I didn't even say we had to trade Lowry, unless a good 2014 pick was being offered in return, which would be great return for an expiring PG (the most abundant position in the league).

But yeah twist words brah you're good at that.