Top 10 at Each Position?

[lilmamba_]

What's TS% rank?

i think it means true shooting percent

True shooting percentage is a measure of shooting efficiency that takes into account field goals, 3-point field goals, and free throws.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html

[Buyckshot]

This is kind of a silly thread. We know the starting lineup is good--top 10 in the league probably. It's better to look at the whole than the parts, but I'll bite...

Lowry: Could be top 10, but with the uncertainty of whether he'll return to Houston form (especially given the scoring pop from Demar Rudy and JV which might lower his point total) I'd say he's top 15 right now

DeRozan: He does one thing very well: play big minutes, and that's going to be very key with an average-looking bench. Also I'm sorry but DeRozan is better than JJ Redick and Thabo friggin Sefolosha, get real guys. Geez

Gay: Definitely top 10, and positioned to move up on that list. Better than Andrei Kirilenko wtf people

Johnson: Not top 10 skill wise but he's that glue guy that makes everyone else better. He doesn't hog plays, gets rebounds, is a willing passer and will run the pick and roll well. Also a defensive presence. It's no wonder he led the Raps in plus/minus last year

JV: Definitely could be top 10, obviously it's up in the air though

[flamingtimbits]

Dime Magazine did put Demar on the 10th spot on top 10 shooting guards.
http://dimemag.com/2013/05/the-nbas-...-james-harden/

[flamingtimbits]

And
Demar > JJ Reddick
Demar > Kevin Martin
Demar > Evans
Demar > Afflalo
Demar > Thabs
Demar > Danny Green
Demar > Waiters
Demar > Hayward

No contest.

[white men can't jump]

I can't decide how much I want to be part of this thread. Just seems like it's bound to end up in angry arguments...I'll sum up my thoughts as briefly as possible (which is not so much at all).

Gay is a top 10 SF. His biggest problem is consistency. He impacts the game in multiple ways, and is maybe one of about 10 wing players you can depend on to create and score in tough situations.

Jonas is on his way to being a top 10 C. I can realistically see him as playing himself into that group this year, but in the bottom part of it. I can also see his ceiling as wide open still, and he could be in the debate for best C in the game down the road.

These 2 guys are the only ones you can expect to perform at this level.

DeMar has the talent. He has yet to display all the tools. However, if anyone can come up with a top 10 SG list where the bottom isn't pretty damn questionable, I'd be pretty impressed. It's a crapshoot position. That both makes DeMar look bad, but also makes it feasible he can move upward in that group. We'll see what happens this year. I know a lot of people are out of patience. I think they're a bit too sour from the Bargnani experience. I'm not saying DeMar will improve, but that it's not that unusual for any player to improve when he's still 23.

*I didn't first think to mention PG. Lowry is not top 10. Maybe close....I think in that 10-15 range. It's a strong position, and there are probably at least 7 or 8 guys who are even markedly better than the rest of the talent pool at that position.

**Edit: I want to explain something about the "Bargnani Experience". It is incredibly rare for a guy to get drafted, play big minutes for his whole career, and not even improve marginally in areas. I think maybe one summer he added a post move or two. This is the only development ever in Bargs' game. He never worked on his weaknesses. And he never worked to become better at his strenghts. Most players who want to can keep becoming better, even if it's by pretty small increments. I think DeMar is such a guy, but that still doesn't mean he'll finally make a leap and separate himself from the herd of unspectacular SGs....

[Xixak]

I'd add Rubio and Conley to the list of "definitely better", and Dragic and Bledsoe to the list of "arguably better" at PG.

I would say Conley is arguably better, but about on the same tier as Lowry. They're a wash as scorers, while Lowry is much better on the glass while Conley is a slightly better defender. Rubio is gonna need to shoot higher than 36% from the field before we can talk about him being better than Lowry. Bledsoe is an unknown quantity as a starter at this point, and Dragic is probably close to Lowry's level offensively but KL is SIGNIFICANTLY better on the defensive side of the ball. So no you're wrong.

Batum, Kirilenko, Kawhi Leonard, Paul Pierce and Deng are better than Rudy, and if we're going to talk about JV's potential, it's only fair to mention Barnes and Jimmy Butler on the SF list as well. Iggy's a better SF than Gay as well, though he's also a better SG than DeMar.

Batum, Kirilenko and Kawhi Leonard are role players. Thrust them into Rudy's role as a primary scorer and all of those guys are going to shoot < 40% from the field. You have no freaking idea what you're talking about. Deng is also a role player who can't create his own shot, yes he's better than Gay defensively but Rudy is a far superior offensive threat. Pierce to be fair was probably better than Gay last year, but I doubt that'll be the case this year.

Other shooting guards I'd definitely rather have than DeMar: Kevin Martin, O.J. Mayo, Wes Matthews, JJ Redick, Joe Johnson (if we're disregarding contracts), J.R. Smith, Afflalo. Counting Iggy, that puts him at 12th, but depending on how much you value defense, shooting, and/or hustle: Sefalosha, Dudley, Danny Green, and Tony Allen could all make a strong case for being above DeMar.

Kevin Martin was more efficient than DeRozan last year, but he also gets to play off of Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook. Any time you can play next to two stars that's going to boost your efficiency. In the playoffs where he was thrust into the same role as DeMar (2nd option) he shot 38% from the field. OJ Mayo is not better than DeRozan by any metric, unless all you care about is shooting threes, and he was terrible in the 2nd half of the year when his 3-ball stopped falling at an unsustainable 50% rate.

Wesley Matthews, Afflalo and JJ Redick are role players. All they do is come off screens and take open shots, and Demar STILL shot a better percentage than either of them on more attempts, including much more difficult shots. J.R. Smith was basically on par with DeMar last year, and Joe Johnson is DEFINITELY not better at this stage of his career. If you consider Iguodala a shooting guard (which most people would say he's not), it's not even for sure that he's better than DeMar. The last 4 guys you mentioned are just ridiculous to compare to DeMar's talent level.

I understand if you don't like our players, but this ridiculous underrating is just getting absurd.

Also for the people who think DeMar has barely improved because his scoring average hasn't gone up much since his second year. You need to take into account what kind of system he's playing in. We were 11th in pace in 2010-2011, and last year we were 24th. DeRozan's game OBVIOUSLY suits a more uptempo style. If you took this DeRozan and put him on that 2010-11 Triano team, he would have scored over 20 points per game.

[Xixak]

Dime Magazine did put Demar on the 10th spot on top 10 shooting guards.
http://dimemag.com/2013/05/the-nbas-...-james-harden/

Should actually be higher on that list in my opinion. He's better than Klay Thompson and Joe Johnson at this point.

[flamingtimbits]

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball...s/13/2/eff/1-1

I'm not much of a stats guy. But according to hoopsstats, we actually have a pretty decent lineup.

Kyle is #16
Demar is #7
Rudy is #6
Amir is #19
Jonas is #29

And most of them are still young and bound to get better.

[chris]

Lowry isn't a top 10, but in part due to the depth at PG in the NBA right now.

exactly. in addition to the 9 players xixak has pointed out that are inarguably better than lowry, i don't think lowry can be said to be inarguably better than the following players: mike conley, ricky rubio, jrue holiday, ty lawson, eric bledsoe, damian lillard, kemba walker, goran dragic, jeff teague, geore hill, brandon jennings.

so, it can be argued that he's not in the top 20 just as easily as it can be argued that he's in the top 10. personally, there are 8 players on my list that i'd definitely rather have as this franchises point guard than lowry, so i've got him ranked at 18th.

[chris]

Batum, Kirilenko and Kawhi Leonard are role players. Thrust them into Rudy's role as a primary scorer and all of those guys are going to shoot < 40% from the field.

if rudy gay is the 4th best player on a good team (which he was in memphis) but takes shots like a first option (which he did) and that team gets better by trading him for worse players and redistributing his shots then what does that say about rudy gay?

those players are far better in their roles than rudy is in his role as a number one option.

fuck building this team around rudy gay. far too much is made around here about his ability to create, take, and occasionally make tough shots. that's one aspect of the game. doesn't make him a better player than role players who contribute to their teams in multiple other ways.

the only way i want any part of rudy on this team going forward is at half his salary taking half as many shots as he currently does, and focusing on other aspects of his game. becoming a role player basically.

because he's a shitty number one option.

[rap]

I find these lists hard to make because judging the defense side is more difficult then their offensive game. Also, a guy like Amir is valuable to the team defensively but will probably always be below average offensively. The other part is team fit, as for example, the lack of 3 point shooting is not deal breaker for SG or SF etc making the top 10 list but if none of the starters have that talent then those players may not make sense for building an above average starting 5.

That said, I think Amir can work well with a C who is offensively gifted and average defensively.
KL/DD/RG have good defensive skills as a tandem and work offensively. They are inefficient but that is not so concerning provided the bigs are good on rebounding. The bigger concern for them is their low 3 point shot and lack of passing which prevents them from spreading the floor.

However as a tandem, the Raptors top 5 is a top 10 starting line up league wide

[Xixak]

if rudy gay is the 4th best player on a good team (which he was in memphis) but takes shots like a first option (which he did) and that team gets better by trading him for worse players and redistributing his shots then what does that say about rudy gay?

those players are far better in their roles than rudy is in his role as a number one option.

fuck building this team around rudy gay. far too much is made around here about his ability to create, take, and occasionally make tough shots. that's one aspect of the game. doesn't make him a better player than role players who contribute to their teams in multiple other ways.

the only way i want any part of rudy on this team going forward is at half his salary taking half as many shots as he currently does, and focusing on other aspects of his game. becoming a role player basically.

because he's a shitty number one option.

I'm not saying Rudy Gay is a good #1 option. All I said is he's a top 10 player at his position, that isn't up for debate.

And did Memphis really get better after losing him? Their post-Gay record was slightly better in the regular season, but then what did they do in the playoffs? They lost the first two games to the Clippers, at which point Blake Griffin went down and they took advantage of a team missing its second best player, which also meant Z-Bo didn't have to work at all on defense. Then they beat the Thunder who had Durant and nothing else. As we've seen in the past it's very easy for a strong defensive team to beat a one-man show (see the multiple beatings that were given to LeBron and his Cavs by Orlando and Boston a few years ago).

Then when they had their first test against a legitimately healthy team in the Spurs, they got beaten. Largely in part to not having a perimeter player capable of creating his own shot in late game situations. Gasol's efficiency suffered GREATLY due to having to have a larger role in the offense (39.7% from the field against San Antonio).

I'm not saying you want Gay as your first option. He CANNOT be the first option on a championship level team in my opinion (unless you had an all-star at the other 4 positions like we saw with Detroit). But players like Gay are INTEGRAL to a championship team. In the playoffs, you need players who can get their own shot from multiple spots on the floor, and those players come at a premium cost for that reason. It's nice to have those 3 and D guys in your rotation as well throughout the game, but at the end of the day you're not going to put the ball in Danny Green or J.J. Redick's hands and ask them to hit shots in crunch time, I'm sorry it doesn't work like that.

[flamingtimbits]

if rudy gay is the 4th best player on a good team (which he was in memphis) but takes shots like a first option (which he did) and that team gets better by trading him for worse players and redistributing his shots then what does that say about rudy gay?

those players are far better in their roles than rudy is in his role as a number one option.

fuck building this team around rudy gay. far too much is made around here about his ability to create, take, and occasionally make tough shots. that's one aspect of the game. doesn't make him a better player than role players who contribute to their teams in multiple other ways.

the only way i want any part of rudy on this team going forward is at half his salary taking half as many shots as he currently does, and focusing on other aspects of his game. becoming a role player basically.

because he's a shitty number one option.

Rudy is a gifted player. My only two problems with him are his salary and the fact that Casey seems to use him as an offensive bail-out (the ISOs). I believe if he was properly utilized, he would be a lethal weapon to have no doubt.

[Xixak]

I find these lists hard to make because judging the defense side is more difficult then their offensive game. Also, a guy like Amir is valuable to the team defensively but will probably always be below average offensively. The other part is team fit, as for example, the lack of 3 point shooting is not deal breaker for SG or SF etc making the top 10 list but if none of the starters have that talent then those players may not make sense for building an above average starting 5.

That said, I think Amir can work well with a C who is offensively gifted and average defensively.
KL/DD/RG have good defensive skills as a tandem and work offensively. They are inefficient but that is not so concerning provided the bigs are good on rebounding. The bigger concern for them is their low 3 point shot and lack of passing which prevents them from spreading the floor.

However as a tandem, the Raptors top 5 is a top 10 starting line up league wide

I think this is why Ujiri is not blowing up the team, and is taking a patient approach while keeping the core intact for the most part.

This team is currently constructed in such a way that adding a top 10-20 player to the roster would make it a championship contender. Not saying that is easy to do, but by 2015 we're looking at having some excellent flexibility to make such a move either via free agency or trade.

Blowing up the roster to tank is the alternative, and it's actually a much riskier proposition. We could end up getting a middling talent and struggle to get back to the level of our current talent-base 3 years from now.

Rudy is a gifted player. My only two problems with him are his salary and the fact that Casey seems to use him as an offensive bail-out (the ISOs). I believe if he was properly utilized, he would be a lethal weapon to have no doubt.

I whole-heartedly agree with this. Rudy Gay is not worth 20M a year, I'm sorry he just isn't and I love the guy.

But I think he surely plans to opt out of the last year of his deal, and this is where Ujiri will look to capitalize in my opinion. Inking him to a 4 year extension for 14 or 15M per season right now could be well worth it and leave us with much more flexibility moving forwards.

[The Great One]

Not this again.

Lowry is NOT a top 10 PG in this league. I'd put him in the bottom 10.