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  • #91
    Taking your man off the dribble and creating a shot are not the same thing. If that's what you're limiting your definition to then I strongly disagree. Yes, taking your man off the dribble results in the creation of a shot. So does having a defender bite on a pump-fake, fake pass, etc. So does having defenders collapse on you as you're going to the rim. So does recognizing the open man and making the decision that he can score from where he is. As far as I'm concerned, "shot facilitator" and "shot creator" are the same thing: making shots less difficult for yourself or your teammate.

    If we use your definition, Monta Ellis is one of the best shot creators in the league. Unfortunately, most of his created shots go to himself. Not exactly someone I'd use to build around Bosh.

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    • #92
      Marz wrote: View Post
      Taking your man off the dribble and creating a shot are not the same thing. If that's what you're limiting your definition to then I strongly disagree. Yes, taking your man off the dribble results in the creation of a shot. So does having a defender bite on a pump-fake, fake pass, etc. So does having defenders collapse on you as you're going to the rim. So does recognizing the open man and making the decision that he can score from where he is. As far as I'm concerned, "shot facilitator" and "shot creator" are the same thing: making shots less difficult for yourself or your teammate.

      If we use your definition, Monta Ellis is one of the best shot creators in the league. Unfortunately, most of his created shots go to himself. Not exactly someone I'd use to build around Bosh.
      Marz well said!! How are shot facillitator and creator different. Is it an actual position with a definition somewhere that's gospel, or something he made up to defend his position. Seems alot like Khandor who also knows everything.

      Comment


      • #93
        Marz wrote: View Post
        Taking your man off the dribble and creating a shot are not the same thing. If that's what you're limiting your definition to then I strongly disagree. Yes, taking your man off the dribble results in the creation of a shot. So does having a defender bite on a pump-fake, fake pass, etc. So does having defenders collapse on you as you're going to the rim. So does recognizing the open man and making the decision that he can score from where he is. As far as I'm concerned, "shot facilitator" and "shot creator" are the same thing: making shots less difficult for yourself or your teammate.

        If we use your definition, Monta Ellis is one of the best shot creators in the league. Unfortunately, most of his created shots go to himself. Not exactly someone I'd use to build around Bosh.
        I'll be clearer for you since you are dealing in semantics. Taking your man off the dribble, and collapsing the defence so other defenders are coming to help and finding open teammtes as result of the defence collapsing or help defence coming. The creation part entails getting teammates good looks through your penetration and/or creation of offence for yourself. Pump fakes and fake passes are nice but how frequently do they positively result in creating shots? You can break down your man of the dribble 5 times cause he can't stay in front of you, go to the basket twice and on the other 3 occasions dish to a teammate that is open from his man having to help on you. How often are you going to achieve that on the same defender through pump-fakes? This is the NBA

        Using the same example, Jose is a facilitator. He runs the offence and gets the ball to players in the context of the offence. He does not create shots for teammates. Calderon is not creating shots for teammates, he's facilitating through the offence. If you want to play with words to indicate your point thats fine, but once again, I would respect that you ask a coach on basically any level of basketball, what the difference is and lets see if they make a significant distinction between the 2. Not asking you to take my word for it at all.

        Ask those that have more knowledge and understanding of the game than you are I and then you can determine if indeed shot facilitation and shot creators are one in the same. Do you think they will argue that they are the same thing or is it about trying to correct my definition? Regardless of me not being as clear as you would like, they are not the same things.

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        • #94
          Pizzaman wrote: View Post
          Marz well said!! How are shot facillitator and creator different. Is it an actual position with a definition somewhere that's gospel, or something he made up to defend his position. Seems alot like Khandor who also knows everything.
          Once again, I would refer you to those that know more about basketball than you or I, and see if they say it's the same thing.

          If you think I'm making it up we can indeed inquire with a coach or basketball personnel. I have friends that have played D1 ball, and pro ball in Europe and I'm sure they can provide us with a definition or a distinction (if there is any) by asking one of their previous coaches.

          If you think I'm making stuff up, I say go to a better and more reliable source which I am more than willing and anxious to do.

          You can call me whatever you want as you are good at insulting people as evidenced by your frequent ranting posts, and just to be clear I've never claimed to know everything........I just know significantly more than you.

          Comment


          • #95
            sleepz wrote: View Post
            Once again, I would refer you to those that know more about basketball than you or I, and see if they say it's the same thing.

            If you think I'm making it up we can indeed inquire with a coach or basketball personnel. I have friends that have played D1 ball, and pro ball in Europe and I'm sure they can provide us with a definition or a distinction (if there is any) by asking one of their previous coaches.

            If you think I'm making stuff up, I say go to a better and more reliable source which I am more than willing and anxious to do.

            You can call me whatever you want as you are good at insulting people as evidenced by your frequent ranting posts, and just to be clear I've never claimed to know everything........I just know significantly more than you.
            You still have not answered me on how I am a racist. You do not make serious accusations like that without backup or proof. I hae no issue with your basketball preferences, and I happen to see the game much much different than you and I have been playing basketball and watching it for many years. I have held Raptor season tickets since day 1 and rarely miss a game. That said you and I can disagree everytime but please tell me again how I am a racist!

            Comment


            • #96
              sleepz wrote: View Post
              I'll be clearer for you since you are dealing in semantics. Taking your man off the dribble, and collapsing the defence so other defenders are coming to help and finding open teammtes as result of the defence collapsing or help defence coming. The creation part entails getting teammates good looks through your penetration and/or creation of offence for yourself. Pump fakes and fake passes are nice but how frequently do they positively result in creating shots? You can break down your man of the dribble 5 times cause he can't stay in front of you, go to the basket twice and on the other 3 occasions dish to a teammate that is open from his man having to help on you. How often are you going to achieve that on the same defender through pump-fakes? This is the NBA
              But you can have collapsing defenses without breaking your man off the dribble! If I go around a pick and drive to the rim the defense will surely collapse. What I'm saying is you don't have to break your man off the dribble in order to create. Getting a man to leave their feet with a pump fake, driving to the rim, and dishing to the open shooter in the corner is just as effective (if not more, since your defender is in the air as you're doing this).

              Comment


              • #97
                Marz wrote: View Post
                But you can have collapsing defenses without breaking your man off the dribble! If I go around a pick and drive to the rim the defense will surely collapse. What I'm saying is you don't have to break your man off the dribble in order to create. Getting a man to leave their feet with a pump fake, driving to the rim, and dishing to the open shooter in the corner is just as effective (if not more, since your defender is in the air as you're doing this).
                Semantics and word play. The original argument was, is there a difference between shot creators and shot facilitators which you said there was not.

                Should we still verify this or have you moved on from your original position?

                Comment


                • #98
                  Pizzaman wrote: View Post
                  You still have not answered me on how I am a racist. You do not make serious accusations like that without backup or proof. I hae no issue with your basketball preferences, and I happen to see the game much much different than you and I have been playing basketball and watching it for many years. I have held Raptor season tickets since day 1 and rarely miss a game. That said you and I can disagree everytime but please tell me again how I am a racist!
                  Moved on from basketball debates now? Good idea.


                  You're what I call an inverted racist. Careful not to say anything too inflamitory but going to comment on a man's child and call the child a "bastard" child like you know for a fact that Chris Bosh is not a responsible father.

                  You don't have any knowledge of this other than some court order (which many couples that have problems go through) by his ex-girlfriend but feel it gives you cause to make these callous comments. The nuclear family and child raising with two active parents is an active issue amongst African Americans and blacks such as myself here in Canada so it's offensive to hear someone who has no personal knowledge of anything at all make derrogatory comments on family affairs that aren't theirs.

                  The 'inverted' part comes in because you are quick to jump on people who say anything at all about Bargnani and pasta as some form of racism or any commentary about Euros' like you are championing the cause of the weak and abused. Bargnani made a pasta commercial did he not?lol Don't tell me "well Chris Boshes child is a bastard child cause thats the definition of it" but it's said with malice and you should be ashamed of yourself for doing it.

                  You don't know anything about his personal affairs or his relationship with his daughter other than some quick news story. I have a child with a woman that I am not married to and if you see my in the streets and say that to me you will be put in your place, trust me. I'm sure every couple you encounter that has a child and are not married, you don't refer to thier child as a bastard child. You're just trying to be derrogatory and mean spirited and it's embarrasing cause this forum that is or should be just about basketball.

                  Stick to talking about ball and try not to be as insensitive to others as you are, unless of course it has something to do with Italians, in which event you are quick to be aware and conscious of what others may say.

                  Do you need me to break down anything else for you or have you now been dealt with sufficiently(?), cause I am done with you unless you muster up the courage to talk about basketball.
                  Last edited by sleepz; Wed Jul 28, 2010, 05:01 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    sleepz wrote: View Post
                    Moved on from basketball debates now? Good idea.


                    You're what I call an inverted racist. Careful not to say anything too inflamitory but going to comment on a man's child and call the child a "bastard" child like you know for a fact that Chris Bosh is not a responsible father.

                    You don't have any knowledge of this other than some court order (which many couples that have problems go through) by his ex-girlfriend but feel it gives you cause to make these callous comments. The nuclear family and child raising with two active parents is an active issue amongst African Americans and blacks such as myself here in Canada so it's offensive to hear someone who has no personal knowledge of anything at all make derrogatory comments on family affairs that aren't theirs.

                    The 'inverted' part comes in because you are quick to jump on people who say anything at all about Bargnani and pasta as some form of racism or any commentary about Euros' like you are championing the cause of the weak and abused. Bargnani made a pasta commercial did he not?lol Don't tell me "well Chris Boshes child is a bastard child cause thats the definition of it" but it's said with malice and you should be ashamed of yourself for doing it.

                    You don't know anything about his personal affairs or his relationship with his daughter other than some quick news story. I have a child with a woman that I am not married to and if you see my in the streets and say that to me you will be put in your place, trust me. I'm sure every couple you encounter that has a child and are not married, you don't refer to thier child as a bastard child. You're just trying to be derrogatory and mean spirited and it's embarrasing cause this forum that is or should be just about basketball.

                    Stick to talking about ball and try not to be as insensitive to others as you are, unless of course it has something to do with Italians, in which event you are quick to be aware and conscious of what others may say.

                    Do you need me to break down anything else for you or have you now been dealt with sufficiently(?), cause I am done with you unless you muster up the courage to talk about basketball.
                    Oh I get it now! I'm a racist because I hit a sore spot for you. Did not mean to get personal here but guess what when I made the comment about RuPaul I was not the only guy calling his kid a bastard ( definition). I did not mean anything personal to you or anyone else and that hardly makes me a racist, or especially an inverted racist whatever that is. As for the Italian pasta thing really it has never bothered me, even being called a wop by my friends, however I bet if I talked about food that was special to African Americans in reference to an African American player then you would really have called me a racist. My comments at the time were in a heated moment describing RuPaul as a deadbeat dad which I am but one of the thousands who referred to him as such. Perhaps it is you who are a racist with your continuing shots at Bargnani and other Euros. Perhaps you think no one else can or should play basketball.
                    I have played with many guys of all colours and have never ever been accused of racism, so stuuf that up your ass because you are only pissed because of your personal situation which does not make me a racist.

                    Meantime I have not moved on from basketball debates,,I simply have a hard time debating with someone who cannot open their eyes to different styles of basketball, someone who makes shit up as they go, and someone who quite franly takes everything about RuPaul way more personally than anyone should who is actually a Raptor fan and watched that loser screw this team, city and his teamates so he could go be LeDouche's and Wade's bitch. ( sorry should I check with you about using that word too?)

                    Comment


                    • sleepz wrote: View Post
                      Moved on from basketball debates now? Good idea.


                      You're what I call an inverted racist. Careful not to say anything too inflamitory but going to comment on a man's child and call the child a "bastard" child like you know for a fact that Chris Bosh is not a responsible father.

                      You don't have any knowledge of this other than some court order (which many couples that have problems go through) by his ex-girlfriend but feel it gives you cause to make these callous comments. The nuclear family and child raising with two active parents is an active issue amongst African Americans and blacks such as myself here in Canada so it's offensive to hear someone who has no personal knowledge of anything at all make derrogatory comments on family affairs that aren't theirs.

                      The 'inverted' part comes in because you are quick to jump on people who say anything at all about Bargnani and pasta as some form of racism or any commentary about Euros' like you are championing the cause of the weak and abused. Bargnani made a pasta commercial did he not?lol Don't tell me "well Chris Boshes child is a bastard child cause thats the definition of it" but it's said with malice and you should be ashamed of yourself for doing it.

                      You don't know anything about his personal affairs or his relationship with his daughter other than some quick news story. I have a child with a woman that I am not married to and if you see my in the streets and say that to me you will be put in your place, trust me. I'm sure every couple you encounter that has a child and are not married, you don't refer to thier child as a bastard child. You're just trying to be derrogatory and mean spirited and it's embarrasing cause this forum that is or should be just about basketball.

                      Stick to talking about ball and try not to be as insensitive to others as you are, unless of course it has something to do with Italians, in which event you are quick to be aware and conscious of what others may say.

                      Do you need me to break down anything else for you or have you now been dealt with sufficiently(?), cause I am done with you unless you muster up the courage to talk about basketball.
                      Sleepz one other thing.... I am not sure how this ever got personal when it started about whether BC should have called out RuPaul. Fact is I cannot stand the guy or his game and am glad to be rid of him, and you love the guy and his game. I also disagree with you on BC and just about eveything else basketball, and the reason I get heated on this blog occasionally is not because don't like a good debate or different views, it's because I don't like getting preached to by someone who professes to know everything. What you know besides facts is your opinion and only that. Do not get condescending like the asshole Khandor.
                      There other than that I am actually not a bad guy and do not want a personal fight here or anywhere else especially about basketball so I am SORRY for anything I said that offended you personally as that was not my intention, nor am I a racist.
                      Have a good evening!

                      Comment


                      • Pizzaman wrote: View Post
                        Oh I get it now! I'm a racist because I hit a sore spot for you. Did not mean to get personal here but guess what when I made the comment about RuPaul I was not the only guy calling his kid a bastard ( definition). I did not mean anything personal to you or anyone else and that hardly makes me a racist, or especially an inverted racist whatever that is. As for the Italian pasta thing really it has never bothered me, even being called a wop by my friends, however I bet if I talked about food that was special to African Americans in reference to an African American player then you would really have called me a racist. My comments at the time were in a heated moment describing RuPaul as a deadbeat dad which I am but one of the thousands who referred to him as such. Perhaps it is you who are a racist with your continuing shots at Bargnani and other Euros. Perhaps you think no one else can or should play basketball.
                        I have played with many guys of all colours and have never ever been accused of racism, so stuuf that up your ass because you are only pissed because of your personal situation which does not make me a racist.

                        Meantime I have not moved on from basketball debates,,I simply have a hard time debating with someone who cannot open their eyes to different styles of basketball, someone who makes shit up as they go, and someone who quite franly takes everything about RuPaul way more personally than anyone should who is actually a Raptor fan and watched that loser screw this team, city and his teamates so he could go be LeDouche's and Wade's bitch. ( sorry should I check with you about using that word too?)

                        Whatever you say. Try and find the light wherever you can. You don't touch any sore spots with me. I don't care what you and your friends say and if 'Italian' comments weren't an issue to you you wouldn't knock people on the forum for bringing it up or anything about pasta, you would let it be, which you do not. You comment on the same things time after time and after awhile it's good to address it so maybe you can realize how steeped in anger and hate you are.

                        I get it, you have one black friend so you know you're not a racist, lol. no worries, keep on believing what you do.

                        You rarely have anything ball worthy to discuss because you rarely talk about anything other than Chris Bosh! lol Tell me I'm lying? I'll pull up all of your previous 50 posts and I guarantee you 95% of them invlove him and throw insults. lol I don't care what you say about Bosh, he doesn't play for the Raptors anymore, but when you diss any good player (any player for that matter) and try to make it seem like they suck because you want them to or talk some personal stuff I would comment in the same manner and wonder what the heck you're talking about.

                        The reason why I address it as much as I do with you, is you have no facts to back anything up. Stat Padding? What is that?lol I've never heard any player, GM, coach accuse Chris Bosh of stats padding. I can't recall any player being accussed of stats padding other than when Nate Rob tried to get a rebound off his own baccboard.Thats a weak man's excuse to try and demean someone. Ball Hog? The guy took 16 shots per game and shot over 50% dropping 24 a night? Thats ball hogging? When they won their division title the ball was swung side to side cause their talent was better. The team they have had the last few years sucked and you're syaing it's because they are focused on Bosh? Of course they are the rest of the dudes suck, which is why they couldn't do anything without him on the floor. He was hands down their best player, which apparently you did not see, but once again, you are entitiled to your opinions.

                        Look, do your thing, comment on whatever you want, I don't need to respond to your comments especially when they rarely deal with anything basketball related. This argument is a waste of time.

                        Comment


                        • sleepz wrote: View Post
                          Semantics and word play. The original argument was, is there a difference between shot creators and shot facilitators which you said there was not.

                          Should we still verify this or have you moved on from your original position?
                          Actually, the original argument was that Hedo Turkoglu was not a shot creator (stemming from the real original argument that BC never provided Bosh with a shot creator). I'm pleading my case that Hedo Turkoglu is, in fact, a shot creator, given the points i've outlined before.

                          But since you want to focus on the shot facilitator side-argument, I still think they are the same thing. "To facilitate" is to make things easier. By pump-faking, driving to the rim, and dishing it to the open shooter, you just made it easier for him to score because, well, he's open. You also "created" a shot that wasn't there before, thanks to collapsing defenses. I'm not playing with words, I'm calling it as I see it.

                          When you create offense, you facilitate offense. I was looking to show you that the things Hedo does (or at least did for the Magic), do in fact involve shot creation, even if he can't break his man off the dribble. Your definition that "shot creator" is a man that can break his defender off the dribble is too restrictive.

                          Even Jose Calderon can break his man off the dribble and speed in for the layup, usually landing on the floor on his back in the process. But according to you he is not a shot creator. Go figure.

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