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  • Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    I have watched probably ever game he has played with the Lakers since he came to them and it appears to me that he has gotten stronger, probably primarily in his base and legs. He had a lot of trouble with the stronger bigs in his first season. Last season he did a lot better against the stronger bigs in holding his position and being able to back them down.
    It's natural for players to get stronger as they get older. It's one reason why a lot of PFs are able to play center when they get older, despite them being undersized.

    Getting back to Bargnani, he's got the opposite problem Gasol did. Bargnani's best position (despite what some may say) is center because he defends big men in the post the best. His problem is defending the more mobile big man and team defense. Obviously a move to PF isn't going to help him in the least, as some feel.

    RaptorRoo wrote: View Post
    Nick wrote:
    Laughable. Do you understand what 7 foot centre who can stroke threes does to offences? Why the hell are Raptors fans so against Andrea?! Alls I keep hearing "I don't want him because he dosn't play defence." Get real! What players on the Raps did play defence????????? But ya lets single out Bargs, good strategy! You guys are all star basketball fans (huge thumb down)
    +100
    Of course, no one is claiming that any other Raptors is going to be top ten in their position, are they? If people would stop making ridiculous claims about Bargnani, I'm sure there would be a lot fewer people "bashing" him.
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    • Tim W. wrote: View Post
      It's natural for players to get stronger as they get older. It's one reason why a lot of PFs are able to play center when they get older, despite them being undersized.

      Getting back to Bargnani, he's got the opposite problem Gasol did. Bargnani's best position (despite what some may say) is center because he defends big men in the post the best. His problem is defending the more mobile big man and team defense. Obviously a move to PF isn't going to help him in the least, as some feel.



      Of course, no one is claiming that any other Raptors is going to be top ten in their position, are they? If people would stop making ridiculous claims about Bargnani, I'm sure there would be a lot fewer people "bashing" him.
      If people are bashing Bargs because of so called ridiculous claims others make, then what does that say about them?
      Bargs was 5th in scoring for centers last season. So offensively at least, that puts him in the top ten doesn't it? Some people can look at the glass as half empty but I prefer to look at it as half full.

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      • RaptorRoo wrote: View Post
        If people are bashing Bargs because of so called ridiculous claims others make, then what does that say about them?
        Bargs was 5th in scoring for centers last season. So offensively at least, that puts him in the top ten doesn't it? Some people can look at the glass as half empty but I prefer to look at it as half full.
        Monta Ellis was 6th in the entire NBA in scoring last season. I don't see anyone touting him as an MVP candidate. Being good at scoring is great. Being a below average rebounder and defender isn't. Especially when you're a big man.

        And when people talk about Bargnani being a top 10 center, when it's pretty obvious he is not, it's a normal reaction for people to comment. If people started talking about how Jose Calderon is a top 10 PG, I'm sure it will get a lot of reaction. Offensively, Calderon very well might be a top 10 point guard, but does that make him one of the ten best in the entire league?
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        • Tim W. wrote: View Post
          Monta Ellis was 6th in the entire NBA in scoring last season. I don't see anyone touting him as an MVP candidate. Being good at scoring is great. Being a below average rebounder and defender isn't. Especially when you're a big man.

          And when people talk about Bargnani being a top 10 center, when it's pretty obvious he is not, it's a normal reaction for people to comment. If people started talking about how Jose Calderon is a top 10 PG, I'm sure it will get a lot of reaction. Offensively, Calderon very well might be a top 10 point guard, but does that make him one of the ten best in the entire league?
          2 things.

          1. Monta is NEVER going to be in MVP contention because he hurts his team by scoring, Bargs doesn't hurt the Raps when he shoots (well sometimes). Monta takes the ball, plays 45 minutes and shoots over 20 times a game. If Bargnani shot 20 times a game and averaged that many minutes his points would sky rocket too.

          2. Bargs is not a top 10 center. There shouldn't even be a discussion. He's top 15 at best. Around there.

          Comment


          • Man, this topic has gone waaay off course. I think the confusion is that most fans undervalue defense, so from that standpoint, Bargs is indeed a top 10 offensive center in the league. The guy asking the poll question needs to be more specific. Kind of the like the overrated / underrated polls - too many ways to slice the criteria. For that, Raps fans get a pass on delusion.

            That said, Bargs is one of the worst interior help defenders & rebounders in the league, (unfortunately no simple stat for help D, other than looking at ON/OFF unadjusted DRAT, see below...). To use a bad hockey analogy, on defense your C is kind of like your hockey goalie. So Bargs is akin a goalie who: (1) gives up too many rebounds, (2) can't stop second chance shots and (3) is out of position when the initial shooter passes the puck.

            And that is what puts him out of the top 10 of centers in the NBA.

            http://basketballvalue.com/teamplaye...=DESC&team=TOR

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            • Anyone who blocks tim duncan 4 times in a game while he is matched up with him is a pretty good one on one defender. Give me another guy who blocked tim duncan 4 times in a game?

              Comment


              • Multipaul wrote: View Post
                We ALL know bargs is easily a top 10 centre in the league, if not a top 10 player.
                Bargs is barely a top 10 player on the Raptors.

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                • ihatehaters wrote: View Post
                  Bargs is barely a top 10 player on the Raptors.
                  Funny. ha. ha. HA. -_-

                  Comment


                  • JoePanini wrote: View Post
                    2 things.

                    1. Monta is NEVER going to be in MVP contention because he hurts his team by scoring, Bargs doesn't hurt the Raps when he shoots (well sometimes). Monta takes the ball, plays 45 minutes and shoots over 20 times a game. If Bargnani shot 20 times a game and averaged that many minutes his points would sky rocket too.

                    2. Bargs is not a top 10 center. There shouldn't even be a discussion. He's top 15 at best. Around there.
                    Agreed. On a side note, #1 explains why I have argued against trading for Monta Ellis when anyone has brought it up.
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                    • Frankthetank wrote: View Post
                      Anyone who blocks tim duncan 4 times in a game while he is matched up with him is a pretty good one on one defender. Give me another guy who blocked tim duncan 4 times in a game?
                      This is what infuriates me. Bargnani had ONE game where he blocked Duncan's shot a bunch of times. Great. Every single player in the league has great games once in a while. Bringing up a time when Bargnani blocked someone four times, or when he did an up and under move against LeBron, or some other isolated situation is not an indication of how good a player someone is. The big problem with Bargnani is that he does NOTHING on a consistent basis. Bargnani also once grabbed 28 rebounds over two games, but unfortunately in the 2 games before and after those two (four games total) he totalled 23 rebounds, which averages out to just under 6 rpg.

                      As I've said many times, Bargnani's only strength on defense is post defense against less mobile players. At this point in his career, Duncan is not mobile. When Bargnani starts being able to defend EVERYONE he faces well, then you'll have an argument. When he defends 1 out of every 4 or 5 players he faces well, then he's just a guy who doesn't defend the majority of players he faces very well.
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                      • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                        Agreed. On a side note, #1 explains why I have argued against trading for Monta Ellis when anyone has brought it up.
                        Same here. Having Monta on our team kills our cap room, kills the development of our entire team, and kills our franchise for atleast a couple of years.

                        Comment


                        • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                          It's natural for players to get stronger as they get older. It's one reason why a lot of PFs are able to play center when they get older, despite them being undersized.

                          Getting back to Bargnani, he's got the opposite problem Gasol did. Bargnani's best position (despite what some may say) is center because he defends big men in the post the best. His problem is defending the more mobile big man and team defense. Obviously a move to PF isn't going to help him in the least, as some feel.
                          I said that in my first ever post on RR HAHA. Yeah, plus on offence he can get passed his man and bring out the center. Just imagine we play Orlando. If Dwight is not in the paint that leaves ALOT of space for all the other players to at least get a lay-in. And if Dwight decides not to defend Bargs on the three point line, he can just shoot. And he does that awesome move on centers every now and then, he grabs the ball, pump fake then runs around the defender across the free throw line and dunk. I love that move. And he's also an underrated post defender. When big centers posted on him, he managed to defend pretty well, I don't have the stats with me, but I saw somewhere (Buddha?) that Bargs is one of the leagues best post defenders, as in other players who post on him have lower fg%...

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                          • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                            This is what infuriates me. Bargnani had ONE game where he blocked Duncan's shot a bunch of times.
                            As I've said many times, Bargnani's only strength on defense is post defense against less mobile players. At this point in his career, Duncan is not mobile. When Bargnani starts being able to defend EVERYONE he faces well, then you'll have an argument. When he defends 1 out of every 4 or 5 players he faces well, then he's just a guy who doesn't defend the majority of players he faces very well.
                            Even if Bargs turns into all world one-on-one post defender, it still won't mean squat. His lack of awareness on help defense will still lead to wide open layups and dunks. People simply do not appreciate that aspect of defense, probably because there's no easy stat for that.

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                            • Bargnani Ranked 37th In The Hoopsworld 2010-11 Top 50 Fantasy Rankings

                              This probably belongs on the fantasy thread but I thought I would post it here because it might get more responses and discussion in "Everything Raptors"

                              Of course the admins may use their insider tools to move it.

                              Note that while Barg is ranked #37, Bosh is only ranked #27 probably because he will be the third banana playing for the "Southern. FL Heaters"

                              1 Kevin Durant
                              2 LeBron James
                              3 Chris Paul
                              4 Dirk Nowitzki
                              5 Dwyane Wade
                              6 Danny Granger
                              7 Kobe Bryant
                              8 Pau Gasol
                              9 Stephen Curry
                              10 Deron Williams
                              11 Amar'e Stoudemire
                              12 David Lee
                              13 Josh Smith
                              14 Gerald Wallace
                              15 Chauncey Billups
                              16 Jason Kidd
                              17 Rajon Rondo
                              18 Carmelo Anthony
                              19 Andre Iguodala
                              20 Brook Lopez
                              21 Brandon Roy
                              22 Steve Nash
                              23 Joe Johnson
                              24 Dwight Howard
                              25 Al Horford

                              26 Al Jefferson
                              27 Chris Bosh
                              28 Troy Murphy
                              29 Carlos Boozer
                              30 Monta Ellis
                              31 Tyreke Evans
                              32 David West
                              33 Tim Duncan
                              34 Paul Pierce
                              35 Manu Ginobili
                              36 Nene
                              37 Andrea Bargnani
                              38 Zach Randolph
                              39 Marc Gasol
                              40 Rudy Gay
                              41 Kevin Love
                              42 Mo Williams
                              43 Marcus Camby
                              44 Kevin Martin
                              45 Stephen Jackson
                              46 Darren Collison
                              47 Antawn Jamison
                              48 Jason Richardson
                              49 Danilo Gallinari
                              50 LaMarcus Aldridge
                              Complete article here - LINK
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                              • 2 italians in the list

                                Danilo is going to have a great year... If he shoots less threes. He is such a great athlete. Sadly, he's a better rebounder than Bargs. Better shooter, more athletic, quick and nearly as strong. And stands at 6'10". Beast.

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