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Lowe: NBA Offseason Moves: Who Won?

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  • #16
    LBF wrote: View Post
    Wait a minute! Are you hinting that Colangelo maybe knew what he was doing? That's a nono on raptorsrepublic
    Colangelo was actually starting to figure his shit out with that Gay trade (he was planning to extend him too). What screwed him was the pursuit of Nash. If not for that he likely doesn't sign Fields and drafts Drummond instead of Ross (who we picked because he was supposedly an NBA ready shooter).

    I like the approach we're taking. Wtf is the point in tanking anyway? Even if we finished dead last there's a higher chance we pick 4th than 1st, end up getting a fringe all-star who we have to wait just to see if they'll even become a Rudy Gay level player. No thanks.

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    • #17
      Xixak wrote: View Post
      Colangelo was actually starting to figure his shit out with that Gay trade (he was planning to extend him too). What screwed him was the pursuit of Nash. If not for that he likely doesn't sign Fields and drafts Drummond instead of Ross (who we picked because he was supposedly an NBA ready shooter).

      I like the approach we're taking. Wtf is the point in tanking anyway? Even if we finished dead last there's a higher chance we pick 4th than 1st, end up getting a fringe all-star who we have to wait just to see if they'll even become a Rudy Gay level player. No thanks.
      I don't have the link, but there was a piece (in the Toronto Star, I think...) where Colangelo was essentially quoted as saying he didn't draft Drummond because of his "red flags" (i.e. his personality, work ethic, motor, etc.). If this is true, I don't think Drummond was ever a realistic option for Colangelo.

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      • #18
        magoon wrote: View Post
        Iguodala plays much better defense and has better IQ and better off-ball movement. Rudy's offense is volume; he's not efficient (he was at one point) and his true shooting % is well below Iggy's. Oh, and Iggy was being courted by multiple teams (Sacramento, Detroit, Golden State, Houston and Dallas).

        Rudy is a better overall player than Iguodala and younger. Iguodala might fit better on certain teams as a role player but Rudy is a superior player so he will make more money. He is also younger. Btw Houston was never a serious suitor because they were invested in Dwight and Sacramento offered Iguodala FOUR YEARS FIFTY-SIX MILLION but pulled the offer when he took too long to accept.

        You are crazy if you think Gay isn't worth 14M in the current NBA market, that is what it costs for a player of that caliber.


        True, but Tyreke is 23 and has potential upside and room for growth; teams overpay for that. Rudy is basically a known quantity at this point.

        I agree with you that somebody will offer Rudy $14m per year - there's always someone willing to overpay a talented-but-flawed player like Rudy. The question is: should it be us? And I think if we can't get Rudy for $11M per year or less, then the answer is no.

        I love Raptors fans. Tyreke has 11M worth of potential and growth but DeMar doesn't have 9M worth at the same age lmao. Even though Reke has regressed every year except the last.
        .

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        • #19
          Xixak wrote: View Post
          Colangelo was actually starting to figure his shit out with that Gay trade (he was planning to extend him too). What screwed him was the pursuit of Nash. If not for that he likely doesn't sign Fields and drafts Drummond instead of Ross (who we picked because he was supposedly an NBA ready shooter).

          I like the approach we're taking. Wtf is the point in tanking anyway? Even if we finished dead last there's a higher chance we pick 4th than 1st, end up getting a fringe all-star who we have to wait just to see if they'll even become a Rudy Gay level player. No thanks.
          That's interesting with Nash..I feel like there's more to that story than what was made public
          If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

          Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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          • #20
            Xixak wrote: View Post
            love Raptors fans. Tyreke has 11M worth of potential and growth but DeMar doesn't have 9M worth at the same age lmao. Even though Reke has regressed every year except the last.
            I didn't say I thought Tyreke was worth $11M a year - I thought it was a massive overpay and Sacramento was right to do the sign-and-trade. I just explained why he got it. New Orleans is banking on him breaking out and becoming at least a 9M player in a couple of years so the overpay isn't excessive, just like we're banking on DeMar becoming a $7M player (which I don't think he is yet).

            And we continue to disagree re: Rudy v. Iggy, except that Rudy is definitely younger than Iggy (no argument there!). Iggy does everything but score well, and his scoring isn't bad (good TS, perfectly respectable FG and 3P percentages) - it's just that he works best as your complementary piece who makes everyone else on the floor better. Rudy isn't a bad player by any stretch and does most things either okay or well, but his supposed strength (scoring) hasn't really been in evidence for years now as his efficiency has regressed.

            I certainly think somebody will offer Rudy $14M, I agree with you on that. I just think it shouldn't be us.

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            • #21
              I don't like the fact that we're "winners" because of our GM. The last time we were off-season winners it was because of the GM too.

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              • #22
                The best thing about signing Gay for 12 to 14M (wherever the number ends up) is that free up some salary (about 5 to 7M next year) to pursue better bench talent and extend players like Lowry if we choose. Building a viable team with Gay at 19M is difficult, but with Gay at 14M is easier. That said, no guarantee that this will move the Raptors of the treadmill to becoming contenders.

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                • #23
                  magoon wrote: View Post
                  I didn't say I thought Tyreke was worth $11M a year - I thought it was a massive overpay and Sacramento was right to do the sign-and-trade. I just explained why he got it. New Orleans is banking on him breaking out and becoming at least a 9M player in a couple of years so the overpay isn't excessive, just like we're banking on DeMar becoming a $7M player (which I don't think he is yet).

                  And we continue to disagree re: Rudy v. Iggy, except that Rudy is definitely younger than Iggy (no argument there!). Iggy does everything but score well, and his scoring isn't bad (good TS, perfectly respectable FG and 3P percentages) - it's just that he works best as your complementary piece who makes everyone else on the floor better. Rudy isn't a bad player by any stretch and does most things either okay or well, but his supposed strength (scoring) hasn't really been in evidence for years now as his efficiency has regressed.

                  I certainly think somebody will offer Rudy $14M, I agree with you on that. I just think it shouldn't be us.
                  Took the words right out of my mouth! I can't agree with this more than I already do now!

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                  • #24
                    I think ideally, you try to get him at 12 per...but you can settle for offering 12.5 guaranteed, and a deal that with incentives can average either 13.5 or 14. I wonder if he'd take that? Like 4 years, 50 million guaranteed, and up to maybe 56 million with incentives.

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                    • #25
                      Iguodala, Smith and Gay posted TS% of 52%, 50% and 49%, respectively last season! Just saying! Iggy might now seems like a better offensive player, but he is based on the true shooting percentage which takes into account scoring efficiency based on field goals, three-point field goals and free throws.

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                      • #26
                        Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
                        Iguodala, Smith and Gay posted TS% of 52%, 50% and 49%, respectively last season! Just saying! Iggy might now seems like a better offensive player, but he is based on the true shooting percentage which takes into account scoring efficiency based on field goals, three-point field goals and free throws.
                        But the thing about Gay compared to Iguodala and Smith, is that he's better at getting you buckets in lower percentage situations for your team. He's slightly less efficient overall, but he can get you that tough fade away over two defenders. That deep three with the clock winding down....whatever crazy ass shot your team needs in a tough spot, Gay is much better at that than most wing players in the league.

                        The biggest problem with Gay is his current salary level. But again, if he were making 12-13 million a year, that's low for a guy among a select group of wings who can be that type of "tough situation" scorer, pretty much all of whom are max players.

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                        • #27
                          white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                          I think ideally, you try to get him at 12 per...but you can settle for offering 12.5 guaranteed, and a deal that with incentives can average either 13.5 or 14. I wonder if he'd take that? Like 4 years, 50 million guaranteed, and up to maybe 56 million with incentives.
                          I think you have to see what other players that are comparable in talent to him make, then add $2 Million per season because he obviously thinks he's better than what he actually is.

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                          • #28
                            Xixak wrote: View Post
                            You are crazy if you think Gay isn't worth 14M in the current NBA market, that is what it costs for a player of that caliber.
                            Current NBA market, that's exactly it. I could see Ujiri handling Gay much like he did Nene; sign a star player to a contract that is within fair market value, even if it's not the right financial and personnel fit for the team, and then move him for the right deal later when he becomes expendable. Though this spans two GMs, turning an expiring Calderon and Davis into Rudy Gay signed longterm at $14 million is absolutely great asset management, whether the plan is to keep him or trade him.

                            If someone's going to offer Gay $14 million in free agency (which I think we all agree would happen), then he has even more value as a signed asset because that means that teams over the cap can trade us matching salary for him (not in a sign-and-trade scenario... I mean we extend him ASAP and then keep ourselves open to trading him further down the road).

                            The alternate -- allowing him to expire -- gives us cap space, and then we're forced into a situation where we potentially end up overpaying for a replacement player not as good as Gay. Based on his track record in Denver, I don't think Ujiri places much value in cap space, compared to how he values players and contracts. Even Kleiza he seemed reluctant to amnesty because of the value in a contract. Letting Gay expire just seems like it would be the last option for Ujiri.

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                            • #29
                              Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
                              Iguodala, Smith and Gay posted TS% of 52%, 50% and 49%, respectively last season! Just saying! Iggy might now seems like a better offensive player, but he is based on the true shooting percentage which takes into account scoring efficiency based on field goals, three-point field goals and free throws.
                              Gay had ONE off year shooting the ball. In the previous 5 he shot like this:

                              2011-2012: 52.1% TS: 46-31-79
                              2010-2011: 54.8% TS: 47-40-81
                              2009-2010: 53.5% TS: 47-33-75
                              2008-2009: 52.8% TS: 45-35-77
                              2007-2008: 54.6% TS: 46-35-79

                              Gay is the type of player that shoots 53% TS with 45-35-80 type shooting numbers. He'll give you 20ppg and make a number of difficult shots that most players can't. On top of that you get 6 boards, 3 assists, a block & steal and well above average defense.

                              He's worth 4yr/$56M and he's better than Smith and Iguodala.

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                              • #30
                                We could legitimately extend Gay then max Love and/or Rondo in 2015.

                                Rondo
                                DeRozan
                                Gay
                                Love
                                Valanciunas

                                Is a very dangerous team.

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