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DeRozan Key To Bargnani's Offensive Consistency? ...And Production?

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  • #31
    Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    You guys are obsessed with a franchise guy. Look at he the Bucks they didn't have one guy average above 17 points a game and they did fine. I expect bargni to average around 20 points a game. Basketball was played long before people became obsessed with one on one players. Team will always beat out individual. Bosh never had any substance to his game just like your arguements. No centre in the NBA can guard Bargni one on one. Just because the offense was run around Bosh and Bargni still scored 17 points a game what do you think he will do when the run the offense around him. You guys have no basketball sense. Bosh was an ISO player and bogged the offense down. The raps will be a motion offense team this year which will allow everyone to be involved which fits into a team philosphy.
    Considering a team almost always needs a franchise guy to be a legitimate contender, I would say fans simply being realistic.

    As for the Buck's, their two best players are currently better than any player on the Raptors, and they still a mediocre team that got into the playoffs because of weak competition.

    You talk about being obsessed with one on one, claiming basketball is a team sport, but then in the next sentence, you state that no center can guard Bargnani one on one. Either it matters or it doesn't. And I won't even get into the fact that Bargnani can't create his own shot, so your statement is not really true.

    And I think there are quite a number of people with basketball sense around here.
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    • #32
      Bosh - Dirk - Bargnani

      The big difference between Bosh and Bargnani on offense is that Bosh has the ability to create his own shot and get to the line. Dirk does, as well. .... Tim W.
      .
      Bosh & Dirk are making 20 million over the next few seasons - even though CB's 1st year is lighter due to Miami's situation. Bargnani will average 10 mil over the next 5 years (8 this coming season). Not really fair to compare production, and then forget salary.
      When you buy that Buick, do you get pissed that it doesn't drive like a Beamer?
      .

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      • #33
        Apollo the only reason Bosh shot a high % is because the Centre couldn't cheat because he had to stay on Bargni who was hanging out at the 3 point line. The fact that the opposing centre couldn't cheat off Bargni didn't help Bosh's game????? Let wake up Apollo. Name one centre that can guard Andrea???

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        • #34
          Tim W. name me those centres??

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          • #35
            Did you ever think that maybe Bosh's game benefited from being next to Andrea? The fact is we will see how Bosh does in Miami without a big to stretch the floor. Also Andrea is a much better man to man defender then Bosh. Counter to what Apollo said that Bosh is better then Bargni at everything except blocks and 3 point shooting. He is a much better man to man defender

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            • #36
              This whole argument is spiraling out of control. Neither Bosh or Bargs can be franchise players on a winning team. They both have way too many holes in thier games and while both may of blossomed offensively when paired together, as a front court tandem they represent ball stopping black holes that double as defensive train wrecks.

              Realistically they should have never been paired together for so long, they share way too many strengths and weaknesses. Last season Bosh played great with a bad supporting cast. Since one of his major weaknesses is that he doesn't make his teammates better or share the ball, the team suffered in spite of his big numbers.

              Bargs production this year should follow in a similar vein to Bosh's last year except that his supporting cast will be significantly better and he will be matched with a PF who does all the little big things that Bargs doesn't.

              Bosh was the best player on the team last year, but he was often complimented by four other bad defensive players. This year Bargs will be the best player on the floor, but he will be surrounded by fast, athletic player's that hustle in transition and hopefully keep thier man in front of them.

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              • #37
                RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                .
                Bosh & Dirk are making 20 million over the next few seasons - even though CB's 1st year is lighter due to Miami's situation. Bargnani will average 10 mil over the next 5 years (8 this coming season). Not really fair to compare production, and then forget salary.
                When you buy that Buick, do you get pissed that it doesn't drive like a Beamer?
                .
                What they make is moot. We're talking about what they do on the court. The argument was that the offense won't suffer because the offense can run through Bargnani playing the high post, like Dirk does. The problem is that Dirk creates double teams and give players open looks, because he can create his own shot. Bargnani won't.

                Frankthetank wrote: View Post
                Tim W. name me those centres??
                The problem with Bargnani is that he has one move, and that's a pump fake. If you don't fall for it, or try and block his shot, anyone can guard him. He's not going to eat you off the dribble. If his man simply stays on the ground, Bargnani can't drive by him. The majority of times Bargnani drove to the basket they were because his man ran at him, recovering from double teaming.

                And guys like Noah, Bogut, Horford, Nene, Javale McGee, the Lopez's, etc, all guys with above average quickness have no problem guarding Bargnani. He has an advantage of lumbering centers, but there aren't a whole lot of those, anymore, especially starting.
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                • #38
                  RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                  Like any stat, you can’t make a judgment based on a small sample (~ 10 games), and extrapolate from there. You also have to take into account, that Bosh’s injuries changed the picture for Bargnani. Instead of teams worrying about Chris & Andrea, it was now … Andrea & Amir/Reggie.
                  .
                  As for “fading” and numbers dropping across the board, AB’s last 10 games had him at 19.6 PPG + 6.3 Rebs (with only a slight jump in minutes) - hardly a drop-off. The problem people have, is that they think AB should’ve “stepped up to the plate”, and produced 25 & 10 numbers. Let me know when you find that switch.
                  .
                  I think some fans needed to fuel their hate, as they focused on one player. Fact is, numbers from the “Out-of-Paint” guys (PG,SG,SF) only improved slightly during Bosh’s absence … Up 2.7 PPG & 1.1 Rebs vs Overall year stats. Losing a Star like Bosh, on a team that didn’t make the play-offs, is really an indication of the whole team. Contenders have back-ups. For the Raptors, the back-ups started. That’s what really ailed this team (along with some other issues).
                  .
                  I like the direction the Raptors seem to be taking - more a complete team, and less Super-Star driven. A Detroit model.
                  .
                  How on earth can you make judgment on him improving if you exclude any data with him in the scenario? There needs to be a two way road. We do know Bargnani's efficiency dropped when Bosh was not active last season. In particular, in games Bosh missed where the Raptors were facing an opponent at or above .500 Bargnani's FG% dipped to 43.75%, his 3pt% dropped to 32.26%, he got to the line half as much, rebounded 1.5/game less and his assist average was also below his season average in this scenario. I know, I know, small piece of data but better than absolutely nothing.

                  RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                  .
                  Bosh & Dirk are making 20 million over the next few seasons - even though CB's 1st year is lighter due to Miami's situation. Bargnani will average 10 mil over the next 5 years (8 this coming season). Not really fair to compare production, and then forget salary.
                  When you buy that Buick, do you get pissed that it doesn't drive like a Beamer?
                  .
                  You want to compare by salary? Then go back and select seasons that aligns with Bargani's current salary and then compare Bosh and Bargnani. Bosh still blows the guy out of the water. We haven't even touched metric stats yet. When I buy a Buick, besides sighing, I want it to drive like a Buick and I don't want anyone to storm in and tell me it's a Corvette and call me stupid for suggesting otherwise.

                  Frankthetank wrote: View Post
                  Apollo the only reason Bosh shot a high % is because the Centre couldn't cheat because he had to stay on Bargni who was hanging out at the 3 point line. The fact that the opposing centre couldn't cheat off Bargni didn't help Bosh's game????? Let wake up Apollo. Name one centre that can guard Andrea???
                  Yeah? And what's the excuse for before Bargnani got here? Matt Bonner?

                  Frankthetank wrote: View Post
                  Did you ever think that maybe Bosh's game benefited from being next to Andrea?
                  Of course it did, his rebounding totals went up as soon as Bargnani starting get good playing time. Everything else is a wash.
                  Last edited by Apollo; Mon Jul 19, 2010, 03:04 PM.

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                  • #39
                    It's pretty funny what you posted.

                    You feign some kind of legit argument/correlation between DeRozan and Bargnani's production...but then you really just revert back to the doom and gloom, sky is falling, "bargs isn't good enough" routine.

                    This is the Bargs era son, just wait and see. Chris Bosh doesn't care about you anymore, you will have to realize it someday.

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                    • #40
                      What? The whole point of the thread from the get go was that Bargnani isn't good enough to do be the #1 without a lot of help. I haven't changed anything. What Chris Bosh cares about has nothing to do with this conversation. Stat's and game film aren't altered by biases but opinion is. People are quick to crown Bargnani king of their hearts and downplay Bosh's impact because of what happened in the past year off the court, this has nothing to do with Bargnani's actual game. Reality is skewed and it's going to sting when people back down from their clouds.
                      Last edited by Apollo; Mon Jul 19, 2010, 03:23 PM. Reason: let me make it more clear...

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                      • #41
                        Apollo wrote: View Post
                        What? The whole point of the thread from the get go was that Bargnani isn't good enough to do be the #1 without a lot of help. I haven't changed anything. What Chris Bosh cares about has nothing to do with this conversation. Stat's and game film aren't altered by biases but opinion is. People are quick to crown Bargnani king of their hearts and downplay Bosh's impact because of what happened in the past year off the court, this has nothing to do with Bargnani's actual game. Reality is skewed and it's going to sting when people back down from their clouds.
                        Ok so the point of your post is that Bargnani, in ur opinion, is not good enough to be the #1 guy? Hasn't this post been made 1000 other times?

                        I posted something the other week about Bargs "being" good enough to be #1, and James Ballswin closed my thread and told me I should not make comments on Bargs' future until after pre season?

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                        • #42
                          Multipaul wrote: View Post
                          Ok so the point of your post is that Bargnani, in ur opinion, is not good enough to be the #1 guy? Hasn't this post been made 1000 other times?

                          I posted something the other week about Bargs "being" good enough to be #1, and James Ballswin closed my thread and told me I should not make comments on Bargs' future until after pre season?
                          Did you just make a comment about Bargnani?
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                          • #43
                            The value that Bargnani has is that although he's not great at any one thing, he's pretty good at everything, offensively speaking. He can shoot, he can drive, he can post up, he's got a bit of speed and he's got size. Accordingly, unlike Bosh who struggled against players who posed match-up problems for him - hence bogging down the offense - he should always be able to find a shot against whatever big is guarding him. He will need to recognize this and adjust accordingly. One thing he's great at is taking the opposing center away from the paint and I imagine Derozan, Weems and Barbosa will thrive with more open lanes in which to operate, with Johnson and Davis coming in after the fact to clean up.

                            His value, then, is that he - as a primary offensive weapon - should keep the offense flowing and more importantly keep the defense guessing, provided he is complemented well with shooters and slashers and that he becomes good at passing out of his moves. This is something he is presently not that good at and above all else if he is going to be a number one guy, or a legitimate primary option at all, he has to become a better passer. It would open up the floor to an incredible degree for our wings to thrive.

                            Secondly, he needs a point guard or someone else to be capable enough to run what would be a fairly complex offense. Someone like Calderon, which is why if Jose is traded, it is vital to get someone back who is capable of managing the floor and distributing the ball properly.

                            I saw him grab a board against Duncan in the post once, draw him back out to the 3 point line where he got Duncan to bite on a pump fake, then blew by him for a dunk. He absolutely schooled Duncan and it was awesome. He definitely has potential...he just needs to keep his head in the game and think properly like he did then. If the Raps ran such an offense where Bargs became a good passer, and everyone played to their potential and as a team, they would be impossible to consistently defend. I also think Bargs will school Bosh if and when they match up against each other.

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                            • #44
                              Multipaul wrote: View Post
                              Ok so the point of your post is that Bargnani, in ur opinion, is not good enough to be the #1 guy? Hasn't this post been made 1000 other times?

                              I posted something the other week about Bargs "being" good enough to be #1, and James Ballswin closed my thread and told me I should not make comments on Bargs' future until after pre season?
                              This thread is about Bargnani regressing on the court without Bosh present and how he needs someone to lean on. Ideally that person will be DeMar DeRozan. This thread is about the relationship they're going to need for Bargnani to thrive. Unfortunately I've had to spend too much time debating Bargnani's game instead of how the two could function.

                              My question to all the Bargnani die hard supporters who are not willing to consider if he fails is will you still support him if what I suggest happens or will you throw him under the bus?

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                              • #45
                                tim w. wrote: View Post
                                did you just make a comment about bargnani?
                                lmao!

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