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  • I like the defensive effort and rebounding.

    I disagree that his offense is a strength: 4 for 14 is much too similar to what he did all last year. I'd rather see him go 2 for 7 and share that ball around until he learns to become an efficient scorer.

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    • Matt52 wrote: View Post
      *DISCLAIMER - Most are well aware this is just one game and one game does not erase 5 years*



      With the disclaimer out of the way, the question remains:

      If Bargnani could always give the effort and play like he did in the first pre-season game of 2011-12, would you want him as part of the Toronto Raptors moving forward?
      If I was to take this statement literally. Its an incredible no. 4-14 on a regular basis is not acceptable or NBA worthy. Ofcourse I don't think the question is actually intended to be that literal.

      The defense was still not there, but he did actually go out of his way to rebound.

      Comment


      • Kuh wrote: View Post
        You want a metric for Bargnani to reach? Sure. How about a wins produced ... I don't care if he gets there by becoming a more efficient shooter, by upping his rebounding or what ... I would like to see his defenders acknowledge his offensive weaknesses (inefficient shooting) as well as his well publicized defensive and rebounding weaknesses.
        Deal?
        Good job on the defensive and rebounding improvements ... and I see the inefficient (4-for-14) shooting is still there.

        Comment


        • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
          So you are telling me that if someone else (or combination of other players) used the possessions Iverson did, its impossible that they made those shots would have been made or the team would have been as successful?
          No, I'm saying that if he didn't take those shots the 76ers wouldn't have had the successes they had. If you take Iverson out of that Philadelphia team, and you give his possessions to the other teammates I highly doubt they would have competed for anything. In hindsight he did make those shots, he did bring the 76ers very far and won many games. And nowhere did I say anything was "impossible", you're just bringing up hypothetical situations/questions which neither of us can answer with any hint of realism nor credibility, especially considering we already know the successul outcome of Iversons contribution to the 76ers that year.

          And I love how you not only initiated another discussion on something which had nothing to do with the initial discussion for obvious reasons, but then proceeded to ignore everything I've rebutted.
          Last edited by JoePanini; Mon Dec 19, 2011, 12:05 AM.

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          • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
            If I was to take this statement literally. Its an incredible no. 4-14 on a regular basis is not acceptable or NBA worthy. Of course I don't think the question is actually intended to be that literal.

            The defense was still not there, but he did actually go out of his way to rebound.
            I agree with Garbagetime. 4-14 is not acceptable, heck, its not even peewee worthy. Eventhough he tried playing defense and tried to rebound, its still not there. He did actually go out of his way to rebound, but for some reason, the ball just magically landed on his hands, 9 times today. Thats what i saw. Its an abomination, a catastrophe. Bargnani is nowhere near NBA worthy, heck, he's not even community center rec. basketball worthy. Forget Casey saying "“Overall, I was pleased with his effort,” and “He got out and impacted the ball on his pick-and-roll coverages. He came back and got some in-traffic rebounds, which we’ve been on him about.” (Source). Its the first game and a pre-season game at that. He wont amount to anything. He's not worthy. He's trash. He's scum, a steaming pile of cow dung. Figuratively-speaking. - (Liar, Liar)
            Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Mon Dec 19, 2011, 12:21 AM.

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            • JoePanini wrote: View Post
              Some might talk about his 4-14 shooting night, but offense isn't his problem. That will come.
              He started off last year exactly the same way. He shot poorly and I came to his defense saying that we know it will come.

              As for whether I'd keep him, I don't know. He certainly worked harder and rebounded the ball but while the effort was there on defense, he's still not all that good at it. He had some good hedges on pick and rolls, but overall, I still see the same low defensive IQ.

              Of course, based on today's game, the only player on the Raptors I keep is Davis. I think DeRozan's defense might have been worse than Bargnani's, Amir obviously still need to get back in shape. Calderon was pretty good at running the team, but shot poorly. And everyone else else played poorly, especially Bayless.
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              • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                literally? No not literally.

                Even if you did, all you could give me is 'opinion'. Which is perfectly fine (and expected).... but that says nothing about who truly IS the 'best' player on the team.
                Then, who was the best player on that 76er team? Who was the catalyst? Who lead the team? Who was the most influential player? Who couldn't the 76ers do without?

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                • Apollo wrote: View Post
                  Not even close? Did we watch the same game? Bargnani played pretty good.
                  Same game. He just had an automatic channel surfer that was triggered everytime Bargnani was about to do something.

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                  • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                    He started off last year exactly the same way. He shot poorly and I came to his defense saying that we know it will come.

                    As for whether I'd keep him, I don't know. He certainly worked harder and rebounded the ball but while the effort was there on defense, he's still not all that good at it. He had some good hedges on pick and rolls, but overall, I still see the same low defensive IQ.

                    Of course, based on today's game, the only player on the Raptors I keep is Davis. I think DeRozan's defense might have been worse than Bargnani's, Amir obviously still need to get back in shape. Calderon was pretty good at running the team, but shot poorly. And everyone else else played poorly, especially Bayless.
                    At least the effort is there. you know what they say, when you want something that bad, you have to work for it. who knows, might be a start for him.

                    not being sarcastic, i actually like this comment Tim. +1.

                    Comment


                    • WhatWhat wrote: View Post
                      I personally feel that he needs to play like an All-Star to keep him over Amir or Davis, and to take the large risk that he'll regress after. I noticed and everything, but I think people are exaggerating because of how fleetingly rare this kind of effort is from him. It makes me think "trade him for a juicy draft pick" rather than keep him. Would I be okay with building with him? Sure. He put in the effort I wanted, but not the results. And I think that's the player we'll see this season, because he doesn't appear to have the stamina. /cynicism
                      If the juicy draft pick is top ten in 2012 then I'd be fine with that but I think we're being unfair to the guy when we're saying the guy absolutely must be an all-star to keep him over Amir or Ed. Amir and Ed won't be close to all-star level anytime soon. Bargnani gets the points and if he brings the rebounds this season and moving forward he could very well make an all-star game. Not sure how likely that is but he passed the first test. He has a whole lot more of them.

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                      • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                        He started off last year exactly the same way. He shot poorly and I came to his defense saying that we know it will come.

                        As for whether I'd keep him, I don't know. He certainly worked harder and rebounded the ball but while the effort was there on defense, he's still not all that good at it. He had some good hedges on pick and rolls, but overall, I still see the same low defensive IQ.

                        Of course, based on today's game, the only player on the Raptors I keep is Davis. I think DeRozan's defense might have been worse than Bargnani's, Amir obviously still need to get back in shape. Calderon was pretty good at running the team, but shot poorly. And everyone else else played poorly, especially Bayless.

                        You really expect him to be amazing at D when he is just starting to learn a completely new system and while only having a short training camp?

                        Comment


                        • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                          He started off last year exactly the same way. He shot poorly and I came to his defense saying that we know it will come.

                          As for whether I'd keep him, I don't know. He certainly worked harder and rebounded the ball but while the effort was there on defense, he's still not all that good at it. He had some good hedges on pick and rolls, but overall, I still see the same low defensive IQ.

                          Of course, based on today's game, the only player on the Raptors I keep is Davis. I think DeRozan's defense might have been worse than Bargnani's, Amir obviously still need to get back in shape. Calderon was pretty good at running the team, but shot poorly. And everyone else else played poorly, especially Bayless.
                          Based solely on this game, I think it's pretty encouraging what we see from Bargnani. Effort and hard work will pay off if he can consistently provide it, he has the body and the skills to do it. This is just a small step in Bargnani's "rehabilitation" and whether he will "make it" or "break it". And I know I'm slightly biased because I've always been a Bargnani fan, but he was one of the best players out there, second only to Davis in my opinion.

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                          • JoePanini wrote: View Post
                            Bargnani's body is significantly "tighter" and more toned now.
                            Plus, his ass looked like you could eat ice cream off of it!
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                            • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              Plus, his ass looked like you could eat ice cream off of it!
                              I'd think that gelato would be more appropriate

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                              • RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
                                You really expect him to be amazing at D when he is just starting to learn a completely new system and while only having a short training camp?
                                I've never understood this defense to criticism. It doesn't make sense. It's like if you say Transformers was a horrible movie, someone will invariably defend it by saying it's not meant to be an Academy Award winner, as if there is nothing in between awful and Academy Award level.

                                I never said I expected Bargnani's defense to be amazing. Just adequate. And I didn't find it even at that level. Of course, I felt the same about most other Raptors today, as I mentioned, so he's in good company.

                                As for him learning a new system, it's instincts that I'm looking for. And I still don't see them with him. A new system isn't going to change that.
                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                                Follow me on Twitter.

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