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DeMar DeRozan: The new Jrue Holiday?

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  • stooley wrote: View Post
    Probably around 15/20%. If Lowry walks, I put a DD trade at 66%?
    LOL I don't think Lowry walking has anything to do with Demar. I also don't see Lowry walking away from this team. Obviously, anything is possible, so we'll see.

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    • special1 wrote: View Post
      LOL I don't think Lowry walking has anything to do with Demar. I also don't see Lowry walking away from this team. Obviously, anything is possible, so we'll see.
      do you not though?

      losing lowry means we don't have the core that put together this run anymore. If we lose lowry, our window shifts from the next few years to 3-5 years away.
      "Bruno?
      Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
      He's terrible."

      -Superjudge, 7/23

      Hope you're wrong.

      Comment


      • special1 wrote: View Post
        Let's not forget that we have a few expiring contracts next year....Hayes and Fields. That's over 12 million between the two expiring next year. If you include Amir there's another 7 million. Therefore, there will be other options....and they're all serviceable/good players.
        Not likely anyone wants fields or Hayes without it being as filler.

        Amir could have value. I'm not sure though ifu get at least equal value back. Might be worth a non lottery first rounder though. Otherwise probably just filler or making a lateral talent move for a hopefully better fit role-wise.

        Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

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        • stooley wrote: View Post
          doesn't sound like a hidden agenda, more like an opinion.
          "I hate his game"....what is that? Is that an opinion?

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          • special1 wrote: View Post
            "I hate his game"....what is that? Is that an opinion?
            yeah, and if he gives a bunch of reasons why, its a justified opinion. it may not be a correct opinion, but using the term "hater" without addressing his explanation, just puts you on that level.
            "Bruno?
            Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
            He's terrible."

            -Superjudge, 7/23

            Hope you're wrong.

            Comment


            • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
              He's also said in this thread how good he thinks DeMar has become, and how even hating his game, value for a trade would have to be off the charts.

              Sometimes someone just doesn't like a guy's game. Carmelo Anthony is one of the best scorers (maybe the best) of the past decade, and I can't stand his game at all. Howard has been the best C in the game for pretty much the same span, and I detest his game.
              Yeah, expecting nothing less than two near guaranteed lotto picks for a player is the ultimate hate after all.

              I don't like his game. It doesn't mean I don't have respect for his game or think he is ineffective.

              As I said earlier in the thread I am a Raptor fan first, individual players fan second. If JV and Ross weren't on rookie deals I'd be wondering what they could fetch too.

              Comment


              • stooley wrote: View Post
                do you not though?

                losing lowry means we don't have the core that put together this run anymore. If we lose lowry, our window shifts from the next few years to 3-5 years away.
                That's your opinion.....I think this team will still have the core minus Lowry and could be good with or without Lowry (that's my opinion). To say what you're saying is to take away from what the coaches, Demar, PP, Vasquez, TRoss, JV, Amir down to the 10th guy has done to help get this team where it is. One person does not make a team. There are plenty of good point guards in the league and coming into the league.

                I know a lot of posters think we're doomed if Lowry leaves, but earlier in the season the same posters thought we were doomed even with him here.

                Comment


                • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                  If only it were that cut and dry ...

                  Not sure why the other team would do this trade then? If they could just wait a couple seasons and get the better (than an All-Star) player.
                  It is a matter if fit and the goals of the organization. I'm sure Milwaukee would love to get back to the playoffs sooner rather than later and may want to cash in future pieces to get better now.

                  Or if the other teams thinks DD would fit great with their roster and were able to offer us some collection of players that better suits our roster...

                  Like you said it isn't cut and dry

                  white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                  I don't know what he can return. I have an idea of what I'd like him to return.

                  First off, I think a top 5 pick is possible, but not too likely, especially this year...though quite easily possible in other years.
                  Thing to remember: Ray Allen at 32 years old was traded for a 5th pick. The whole deal was Allen and Big Baby (newly drafted) for the 5th pick (Jeff Green), Delonte West and Wally Szczerbiak. Now Ray and DeMar are different players in styles of game, but similar in the sense that if DeMar keeps playing this well, he's an all-star who can't be the alpha dog on a championship team. That's Allen for a top 5 pick in a pretty strong draft, and 2 decent quality players, one young and one older (though Szcerbiak was still producing when he played, he was already physically deteriorating).

                  So looking at that, and saying these are just examples that I myself am not sure I'd actually do....

                  -Scenario 1: A top 5-6 pick along with one or two capable rotation players. Not sure I'd do this, but I would listen to a team's offer.
                  Possible example -> Milwaukee's pick this year + Pachulia /Ilyasova + Delfino for DeMar (and possibly filler like Tyler or Novak...)
                  Toronto maintains 2016 cap space (possibly increases with Ilyasova and Delfino), gets 2 rotation players, and a top 5 pick (Exum, Parker or Randle).
                  Caveat....This only could possibly happen if Milwaukee drops out of the top 2 spots (Still don't think they'd trade the pick, but can't imagine they would if it's a first or second overall).

                  -Scenario 2: 2 lottery picks (unlikely either is top 5-6) and young player with upside (or maybe serviceable role player in his prime). Could be pretty intriguing.
                  Possible example -> 2014 and 2015 picks from Orlando (they have an extra 2014 one so they can trade two in a row I believe) and Victor Oladipo for DeMar (and filler if needed)
                  Toronto gets two shots to get a decent player in the draft two years in a row, but given they could be lower lottery picks, Orlando gives up their prized youngster.
                  Don't know if/why Orlando would do this, but my thoughts involve...Oladipo looks smaller than the 6'4'' he's listed at, and doesn't seem to have a natural fit at either guard position. Looks like 6th man material to me, even if it's a very high-calibre, near all-star 6th man. They have picks to spare as well. Afflalo also becomes fully expendable so they can use him to get something else.
                  Note: Orlando could also work in the 1st scenario...their higher pick this year + Afflalo + Harkless....I might accept that.

                  -Scenario 3: an established underrated or lower end star + a pick or prospect
                  Possible example -> Atlanta sends us Al Horford + a 1st rounder (unlikely, but would want it) or Dennis Schroeder (might be possible) for DeMar and filler (our 2nd rounder and/or Tyler Hansbrough?).
                  Could also sub Horford out for Millsap in this deal.
                  I think there's no way Atlanta would actually do such a deal, but if they called me offering Al Horford, I'd struggle to contain my excitement. If it's Millsap, definitely needs to include a 1st rounder because of age difference with DeMar, and since Horford is really who I'd want.

                  Again, I'm not saying I'd necessarily do any of these deals, but I'd definitely consider it and depending on makeup of the deal could be totally fine with them.
                  Well I am definitely undercutting his value.

                  Seems to me he is valued here at a rotation player+2 firsts (lotto), or a big time prospect and a first (Lotto). To put it in perspective Harden only returned two very late lottos and an established Kevin Martin and he was the reigning sixth man. Some of the proposed trades are ridiculously lopsided. Oladipo is up for rookie of the year, and you also want 2 picks for DeMar? Milwaukee giving up probably Exum (a top 5 guy) and a good SG (Delfino) for DeMar? Horford is an allstar plus a late lotto pick and a prospect for DeMar and a second rounder??

                  I think that you guys are over-evaluating DeMars value. He is only a first time all-star with only 2 years on his contract and has some holes in his game (not to hate, just being realistic)

                  I would put his value at a bad contract for a 5-8 pick or an established player and a late lotto or a high value prospect plus a later first round pick

                  white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                  Yeah...something like this. If Lowry walks, it just makes a lot more sense to consider it.
                  This scenario I think the option is to go the Holiday route and do rebuild around Ross/Val, who hopefully know how to return to winning and can teach the new kids...

                  Comment


                  • stooley wrote: View Post
                    yeah, and if he gives a bunch of reasons why, its a justified opinion. it may not be a correct opinion, but using the term "hater" without addressing his explanation, just puts you on that level.
                    Thank you for at least listening to a different opinion whether you agree or not.

                    Also not putting words in my mouth is refreshing too.

                    Comment


                    • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                      Not likely anyone wants fields or Hayes without it being as filler.

                      Amir could have value. I'm not sure though ifu get at least equal value back. Might be worth a non lottery first rounder though. Otherwise probably just filler or making a lateral talent move for a hopefully better fit role-wise.

                      Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
                      I was talking mainly as filler.....

                      Comment


                      • special1 wrote: View Post
                        That's your opinion.....I think this team will still have the core minus Lowry and could be good with or without Lowry (that's my opinion). To say what you're saying is to take away from what the coaches, Demar, PP, Vasquez, TRoss, JV, Amir down to the 10th guy has done to help get this team where it is. One person does not make a team. There are plenty of good point guards in the league and coming into the league.

                        I know a lot of posters think we're doomed if Lowry leaves, but earlier in the season the same posters thought we were doomed even with him here.
                        Fair enough on the bold.

                        But I'd say Lowry is the engine that drives this team. And almost everyone, everywhere seems to agree with that.

                        It may be that we're still a decent team, even without Lowry, that has a shot at making some noise in the playoffs. I really hope that's true.

                        But losing Lowry will at least force us a step backwards. And since we're already a step or two away from our goal as a franchise, that leaves a lot of ground to make up.
                        "Bruno?
                        Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
                        He's terrible."

                        -Superjudge, 7/23

                        Hope you're wrong.

                        Comment


                        • stooley wrote: View Post
                          yeah, and if he gives a bunch of reasons why, its a justified opinion. it may not be a correct opinion, but using the term "hater" without addressing his explanation, just puts you on that level.
                          LOL Who said i didn't address his explanation? Our hypothetical conversation is getting a tad weird now. Thanks for your opinion though. Just curious.....Is there ever a situtation where your allowed to call someone out for being a hater? If so, when would this be allowed?

                          Comment


                          • special1 wrote: View Post
                            I was talking mainly as filler.....
                            That's the crux of this team's position; aside from DeRozan, the team really doesn't have any highly valued assets that also make a decent salary. In order for a team to take any 'filler' from Toronto, they'd have to start with Ross, Valanciunas or a 1st round pick, to return anything of value. At that point, I'd much rather simply offer DeRozan and keep the sophomores and 1st round picks.
                            Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon Apr 7, 2014, 03:18 PM.

                            Comment


                            • special1 wrote: View Post
                              LOL Who said i didn't address his explanation? Our hypothetical conversation is getting a tad weird now. Thanks for your opinion though. Just curious.....Is there ever a situtation where your allowed to call someone out for being a hater? If so, when would this be allowed?
                              If somebody said to dump DeRozan for a 2nd round pick?

                              Brainstorming trade ideas with an expected return that would widely be considered fair market value for an all-star - regardless of the motivation behind the brainstorming - is anything but hate.

                              Comment


                              • special1 wrote: View Post
                                LOL Who said i didn't address his explanation? Our hypothetical conversation is getting a tad weird now. Thanks for your opinion though. Just curious.....Is there ever a situtation where your allowed to call someone out for being a hater? If so, when would this be allowed?
                                Edit: but agreed, this is getting a little dumb. I think I've confused myself haha. I just really don't like the term hater. It's a kind of straw man argument. Like referring to "the left" or "the right" in political debates. it turns a discussion into a shouting match.

                                and... actually, i'm just gonna delete this comment. it didn't make any sense lol
                                Last edited by stooley; Mon Apr 7, 2014, 03:26 PM.
                                "Bruno?
                                Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
                                He's terrible."

                                -Superjudge, 7/23

                                Hope you're wrong.

                                Comment

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