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  • I think we're in agreement and it kind of shows the contrast of opinions in this thread. I too like Landry Fields, just like I like DeMar DeRozan. I think people see criticism of his contract and assume the person hates that player. My least "liked" player is Bargnani, I think that much is obvious. But when we're playing pretend GM, which I do all the time and is pretty much the point of having a forum to discuss the team, then that's when I have to step back and evaluate things differently.

    The thing about Landry Fields is this:

    Season                   Team  Lg  Salary
    2010-11 New York Knicks NBA $473,604
    2011-12 New York Knicks NBA $762,195
    2012-13 Toronto Raptors NBA $6,250,000
    2013-14 Toronto Raptors NBA $6,250,000
    2014-15 Toronto Raptors NBA $6,250,000


    I'm an advocate of evaluating players based not just on their own numbers but on circumstances. To me, player evaluation has to evolve. It's a moving target that is determined based on their performance relative to different things like pay rate, other players on the team, comparable players on other teams and their own development. I can't just look at stats and say this guy is worth this amount of money, period.

    Take Amir Johnson for example. A lot of guys will say he's a steal now and simply accept that when you look at the contract in its entirety it was worth it because on average he made what he deserved. Well, that's fine if you want to look at it right now at this single moment in time. But when you think about 2 years where he wasn't worth that amount, a chunk of financial flexibility was sacrificed each year so that you could enjoy the steal THIS year. Hurray! We got a steal two years later, meanwhile we're going to win 33 games this year. When you look at Landry Fields, it's the same thing.. at the time of his signing, it seemed like a big mistake (to say nothing of the circumstances under which we signed him). $6M for a guy earning less than $1M the year before, where that guy regressed from his rookie year? Yikes.

    Will he one day earn that salary? Possibly, but you're still talking about overpaying him for at least a year maybe more. Like Amir Johnson, he could one day step into a role where he's worth that amount but why not wait until that time before offering him that type of contract? DeRozan is the same situation, we offered him $9.5M but to me he's just an athletic version of Courtney Lee. He's not a ~$10M player yet. Far from it.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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    • Everyone harps on DeMar for being a bad defender; defending is something you learn with experience in the NBA nobody is a stellar defender coming right into the league so young and if they are its players with nothing else to provide i.e specialist job players like Dominic McGuire and James Johnson. Not everyone is going to be Lebron James who does everything at a rather high level guys, temper your expectations for what he is at the moment DeMar is pretty impressive and he can only get better with how much work he puts into refining his game.

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      • Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
        Everyone harps on DeMar for being a bad defender; defending is something you learn with experience in the NBA nobody is a stellar defender coming right into the league so young and if they are its players with nothing else to provide i.e specialist job players like Dominic McGuire and James Johnson. Not everyone is going to be Lebron James who does everything at a rather high level guys, temper your expectations for what he is at the moment DeMar is pretty impressive and he can only get better with how much work he puts into refining his game.
        DeMar isn't a rookie. He's had plenty of time to become a good defender.

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        • ebrian wrote: View Post
          You're right Curry, is making a bit more but he's light years better than DeRozan. I purposely avoided Taj Gibson (who has a pretty bad contract too) for your benefit. Taj will make $5M less than DeRozan and brings everything the Bulls need at the position. Do you really want to compare the Bulls, who's starting lineup will be making $55M next year to the Raptors, who will be making $47M next year? With Rose they're a 60+ win team. We'll be lucky to win 40 next year.
          Why are you avoiding Gibson for my benefit? The point I was trying to make is that you have to overpay to keep players that are coming off their rookie contracts. Chicago did it with Gibson. The Raptors with DeRozan. Is Ty Lawson really worth $48M? He's good but not that good.

          I'm not comparing the Raptors with the Bulls, you are. It has nothing to do with the conversation.

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          • Nilanka wrote: View Post
            DeMar isn't a rookie. He's had plenty of time to become a good defender.
            Players dont become good defenders over night and his position is one of the hardest positions to defend.

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            • Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
              Players dont become good defenders over night and his position is one of the hardest positions to defend.
              Agreed, but, he was known to be a versatile defender coming into the draft ironically... He is quite good in passing lanes, and has very active hands, but he can't stay in front of his man, and has poor close-outs. His fundamentals defensively are poor, but his athleticism makes up for it, which might fool us for him improving as a defender.
              Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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              • Demar's athleticism allows him to intercept passes, block shots, steal the ball etc. He just can't stay in front of anyone, if he gets beat, he can make up for it with quick hands, high jumping, and quick hops.
                Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                • Michel G wrote: View Post
                  Why are you avoiding Gibson for my benefit? The point I was trying to make is that you have to overpay to keep players that are coming off their rookie contracts. Chicago did it with Gibson. The Raptors with DeRozan. Is Ty Lawson really worth $48M? He's good but not that good.

                  I'm not comparing the Raptors with the Bulls, you are. It has nothing to do with the conversation.
                  Well, if you think the Bulls (and now the Nuggets) have nothing to do with the conversation then obviously you don't really understand what this argument is about.

                  Ty Lawson's contract isn't good, but they are headed to the playoffs and will win at least 50 games this year. So as a fan, it's something you can swallow because the team is winning games. Same applies to Taj Gibson. In that sense I agree with you -- sometimes you need to overpay a player to retain them.

                  On the other hand, we are a team that will win 35 games if we play some of our best ball all season for the remaining two months. This is a team, prior to DeRozan's new contract, that has $67M in contracts. We've spent $67M to build a team capable of winning 35 games.

                  I think DeRozan is a pretty good player, but I have very hard time thinking this contract was a good idea. I think other teams would agree that it would be great to have a guy like DeRozan, but when you see the price tag it's like "umm.. no.". I'd much rather sacrifice a bit of offense and get someone like, say, Courtney who does pretty everything the same as DeRozan but is maybe a little less athletic and half the price. I think when you're looking at the Raptors, from the standpoint that we have a whole bunch of money locked into a roster that can only win 40 games (maybe?), then you need to be trying to find ways to save money -- not unnecessarily spend. That's all I was trying to say.
                  your pal,
                  ebrian

                  Comment


                  • ebrian wrote: View Post
                    Well, if you think the Bulls (and now the Nuggets) have nothing to do with the conversation then obviously you don't really understand what this argument is about.

                    Ty Lawson's contract isn't good, but they are headed to the playoffs and will win at least 50 games this year. So as a fan, it's something you can swallow because the team is winning games. Same applies to Taj Gibson. In that sense I agree with you -- sometimes you need to overpay a player to retain them.

                    On the other hand, we are a team that will win 35 games if we play some of our best ball all season for the remaining two months. This is a team, prior to DeRozan's new contract, that has $67M in contracts. We've spent $67M to build a team capable of winning 35 games.

                    I think DeRozan is a pretty good player, but I have very hard time thinking this contract was a good idea. I think other teams would agree that it would be great to have a guy like DeRozan, but when you see the price tag it's like "umm.. no.". I'd much rather sacrifice a bit of offense and get someone like, say, Courtney who does pretty everything the same as DeRozan but is maybe a little less athletic and half the price. I think when you're looking at the Raptors, from the standpoint that we have a whole bunch of money locked into a roster that can only win 40 games (maybe?), then you need to be trying to find ways to save money -- not unnecessarily spend. That's all I was trying to say.
                    For me it's not just about the total amount of money spent, but the fact that the team has a finite amount of money to spend, due to the salary cap. If the NBA were like MLB and MLSE were willing to spend big money, I could care less what any individual player is making.

                    For me, the big issue is the team spending $27.4M next season on the starting wings (Gay @ $17.9M & DeRozan @ $9.5M). Neither of them are great 3pt shooters, neither of them are great defenders and they're both inefficient volume scorers. I don't think they're a great fit together and it's a huge amount of money spent on two individually good players, who are not ideal together.

                    When you consider the fact that the team has other areas of weakness to address and are so far over the cap, the options for doing so are very limited. When you look at the wings, it becomes obvious that Gay is the better player and likely the least tradeable (DeRozan is younger, cheaper and signed longer). That's why, for me anyway, it becomes apparent that trading DeRozan becomes the most effective means of acquiring the best possible talent at another position. The loss of DeRozan would be huge, but the team has both Fields and Ross ready to fill the SG role long-term, with both projecting to be better fits alongside Gay (though neither is as good as DeRozan straight-up, at least right now).

                    Considering the option of trading DeRozan to add an equally talented starting PF, for example, is all about asset/salary cap management to me. It has nothing to do with any negative feelings towards DeRozan, but rather an objective view of the franchise's current situation; team strengths, team weaknesses and legitimate options to address the weaknesses within the limitations of the CBA.
                    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Mar 8, 2013, 01:24 PM.

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                    • CRF, youza hater!!!

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                      • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                        For me it's not just about the total amount of money spent, but the fact that the team has a finite amount of money to spend, due to the salary cap. If the NBA were like MLB and MLSE were willing to spend big money, I could care less what any individual player is making.

                        For me, the big issue is the team spending $27.4M next season on the starting wings (Gay @ $17.9M & DeRozan @ $9.5M). Neither of them are great 3pt shooters, neither of them are great defenders and they're both inefficient volume scorers. I don't think they're a great fit together and it's a huge amount of money spent on two individually good players, who are not ideal together.

                        When you consider the fact that the team has other areas of weakness to address and are so far over the cap, the options for doing so are very limited. When you look at the wings, it becomes obvious that Gay is the better player and likely the least tradeable (DeRozan is younger, cheaper and signed longer). That's why, for me anyway, it becomes apparent that trading DeRozan becomes the most effective means of acquiring the best possible talent at another position. The loss of DeRozan would be huge, but the team has both Fields and Ross ready to fill the SG role long-term, with both projecting to be better fits alongside Gay (thought neither is as good as DeRozan straight-up, at least right now).

                        Considering the option of trading DeRozan to add an equally talented starting PF, for example, is all about asset/salary cap management to me. It has nothing to do with any negative feelings towards DeRozan, but rather an objective view of the franchise's current situation; team strengths, team weaknesses and legitimate options to address the weaknesses within the limitations of the CBA.
                        +1

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                        • DeRozen Has DeRizen

                          That's right, you heard it here first.

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                          • You're not the first. we knew ages ago. but if you want to feel important, i can delete my post

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                            • We should've went to DeRozan for the game winner before OT

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                              • NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                                We should've went to DeRozan for the game winner before OT
                                Agreed. I felt DeRozan was extremely underused for the entire 4th quarter. Anderson and Lucas were left in far too long and didn't get DeRozan the ball enough. I blame DC for not drawing up key plays for the hot hands.

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