Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Raptors Year in Review: Tim Chisholm of TSN

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Inefficient? This year he is slightly below average but he is playing looking over his shoulder and asked to change what he has naturally always done.
    ...
    It was known how Lowry played the game when he was brought in from Houston. What I want is him to be the player that was brought in from Houston.
    ...
    As for Casey, I am assuming you watch the games. I've seen better offense run in high school. That is on the coach. And prior to Calderon's trade it was hardly a joy to experience either. How many stretches of games did we endure 5-8minute scoring droughts because the 20+ft jumpers were not falling.... there is a reason those shots are always available.
    First point: I don't care WHY he's been inefficient (and it's not just about his own #s; he's the PG, he's responsible for the overall offensive efficiency when he's on the floor), just that he has been. He's a 27yo professional basketball player; if he can't deal with those "challenges" you mention, then he's not a good fit for this team.

    Second point: Yes, it was certainly well known. But Casey didn't bring him in, Colangelo did. This has nothing to do with how he has performed since bringing him in. His style of play and his on-court decisions made him a pariah of sorts in Houston, and he wasn't adding to team success there, either. In other words, I'm not so sure that "Kyle playing Kyle's game" is in the best interest of any team trying to win on a consistent basis.

    Final point: I simply don't agree about the offense Casey is trying to implement. You keep brushing over all the challenges for Casey in trying to get this current group to run the defense and offense he has designed. And yet, you're willing to give Lowry the benefit of the doubt. Strange perception/twist on Casey.

    In fact, as you yourself have said, we *know* from history what to expect from Lowry when he's playing "his" game -- and it's not great, in terms of team results. We also know what to expect from Casey when he's getting full buy-in to his plan (witness last year, and the Dallas Mavericks of championship fame) -- and it was pretty damn good. He's definitely more comfortable coaching defense than offense, but again, O is reliant on D. If they're playing BS defense as they have been most of this year, they simply cannot play a run-out oriented offense. If you're going to play BS defense, you absolutely need a rock-solid halfcourt offense. And that doesn't play to the strengths of Lowry, Derozan or Gay.

    I'm not sure why you continue to assume it's Casey's fault and not the fault of the new players in terms of not continuing the positive progression from last year.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

    Comment


    • #17
      thead wrote: View Post
      I say that because my ideal would be Landry Fields (healthy) in the 6th man role
      I'm fine with Ross or Fields as starter or 6th man next to Gay.

      Comment


      • #18
        Matt52 wrote: View Post
        I'm fine with Ross or Fields as starter or 6th man next to Gay.
        yeah I can live with that. I'd prefer having JJ Reddick somehow
        For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

        Comment


        • #19
          jimmie wrote: View Post
          First point: I don't care WHY he's been inefficient (and it's not just about his own #s; he's the PG, he's responsible for the overall offensive efficiency when he's on the floor), just that he has been. He's a 27yo professional basketball player; if he can't deal with those "challenges" you mention, then he's not a good fit for this team.

          Second point: Yes, it was certainly well known. But Casey didn't bring him in, Colangelo did. This has nothing to do with how he has performed since bringing him in. His style of play and his on-court decisions made him a pariah of sorts in Houston, and he wasn't adding to team success there, either. In other words, I'm not so sure that "Kyle playing Kyle's game" is in the best interest of any team trying to win on a consistent basis.

          Final point: I simply don't agree about the offense Casey is trying to implement. You keep brushing over all the challenges for Casey in trying to get this current group to run the defense and offense he has designed. And yet, you're willing to give Lowry the benefit of the doubt. Strange perception/twist on Casey.

          In fact, as you yourself have said, we *know* from history what to expect from Lowry when he's playing "his" game -- and it's not great, in terms of team results. We also know what to expect from Casey when he's getting full buy-in to his plan (witness last year, and the Dallas Mavericks of championship fame) -- and it was pretty damn good. He's definitely more comfortable coaching defense than offense, but again, O is reliant on D. If they're playing BS defense as they have been most of this year, they simply cannot play a run-out oriented offense. If you're going to play BS defense, you absolutely need a rock-solid halfcourt offense. And that doesn't play to the strengths of Lowry, Derozan or Gay.

          I'm not sure why you continue to assume it's Casey's fault and not the fault of the new players in terms of not continuing the positive progression from last year.
          How has he been inefficient? You clearly don't care for stats so I am not sure what you are making your claims from. When I say he is been slightly below average I mean his TS% is 54.4% while the average NBA PG is 53.3% and his eFG% is 48.4% and average for NBA PG is 49.1% (from theNBAGeek.com). What Lowry has been asked to do this year is akin to asking a neurosurgeon to start doing orthopedics after 7 years or ask a math teacher to start teaching english after 7 years. You think the transition is going to be a smooth one? Your bias against Lowry is blatant. Also on a team with a dreadful OffRtg of 100.9 since February 1st, Lowry has a personal OffRtg of 102.8. How is Lowry responsible for overall offensive efficiency when the main form of offense that has been devised by the coaching staff is ISO-ISO-ISO-JUMP SHOT-ISO-ISO-ISO? An ISO driven offense is not on Lowry, it is on Casey.

          Not sure where you are getting your take on the lack of success Lowry has had. He was the starting PG in 71 of 75 games in 2010-11 where HOU went 43-39 in the west with the 3rd best PPG (105.9) and the 4th best OffRtg (111.3) coached by a guy named Rick Adelman.... imagine that! In 2011-12, he was the starting PG when he went down with injury and the team was 21-19 and 21-17 in the games he started and played at that time. The team finished the year 13-15 with him either not starting or coming off the bench. Relative to the Raptors last 4 seasons that is nearly championship calibre.... and it was done with a mediocre supporting cast.

          Casey might not have brought him in but he certainly bowed down at the beginning of the relationship, anointing him the starting PG and singing all the attributes and praises that he was brought in for but has had little opportunity to display. In fact it was so bad Calderon's agent requested a trade only to see Casey come back and say nothing had been decided.

          Casey gets no benefit of the doubt because he calls timeouts for plays that turn in to turnovers on a consistent basis; he can't run a play to inbound a ball in pressure situations; his sub patterns and rotations are ever changing and ridiculous; and I am not sure what defense or offense he is attempting to run this season. Offense is a mish-mash of ISO 21foot jump shots and 21foot jump shots off screens. Defense appears to be foul the other team (fun fact: Toronto through 80 games has 1802 personal fouls; 2nd is GSW with an extra game at 1736).

          Yes I do know what to expect from Lowry when playing his game from his time in Houston as discussed above. Unfortunately we don't know what to expect from Lowry playing his game minus Bargnani and healthy. We know that a healthy Lowry in his first three games this year was incredibly exciting and led to 2 very close losses despite an injured Fields and a disinterested Bargnani. We've had Lowry playing his game with Bargnani and we've had Lowry playing Jose's game without Bargnani.

          If Casey gets the praise from last season, he also gets the fall for the decline this season. He has already admitted he was focused on offense this season to the detriment of D - it is in fact the opposite situation from the year before when it was all D and O suffered. How is it on new players not buying in on D when a full year was spent on it last season with minimal time spent this year? Defensive rating gives some insights:

          Pre-Gay: 105.4 (Raps 16-30, Lowry 16 starts, 27mpg)
          Post-Gay: 104.1 (Raps 16-18, Lowry 34 starts, 32mpg)

          Pre-Gay Lowry individual DefRtg starting: 106.7
          Pre-Gay Calderon individual DefRtg starting: 106.7

          Crazy enough the best stretch of defense the Raptors played this season was the first 4 games with the free wheeling and dealing Lowry where they had an injured Fields and disinterested #tradeBargnani with a DefRtg of 99.0.

          Comment


          • #20
            lowry is a better fit for any team than derozan. he can do everything a pg is asked to do. demars game involves taking the worst shot in the game over and over again. you shouldnt ask the better player to stop playing his game so that somebody else can play theirs

            Comment


            • #21
              Matt52 wrote: View Post

              Not sure where you are getting your take on the lack of success Lowry has had. He was the starting PG in 71 of 75 games in 2010-11 where HOU went 43-39 in the west with the 3rd best PPG (105.9) and the 4th best OffRtg (111.3) coached by a guy named Rick Adelman.... imagine that! In 2011-12, he was the starting PG when he went down with injury and the team was 21-19 and 21-17 in the games he started and played at that time. The team finished the year 13-15 with him either not starting or coming off the bench. Relative to the Raptors last 4 seasons that is nearly championship calibre.... and it was done with a mediocre supporting cast.
              When you talk about his time in Houston, the issue isn't lack of success, it's how he behaved. Specifically, when he came out and said (and I'm paraphrasing) "Either McChale goes or I go" http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/79...n-mchale-coach. He's a would be coach killer. That's a terrible thing to have on your resume.

              Now, I watched that incredible little stretch that he had at the beginning of the year, and I've watched him be very average since he came back from the injury. One way to explain the difference in the way he's played is what we've already read a million times: pre-injury, he was playing like himself, post-injury, he was forced into playing like Jose.

              But the entire post-injury run, I've always got the sense that he was holding back. Not holding back in the sense of "I can't make such-and-such a play because coach says I can't", but in the sense of "Fine coach, f*** you: you're not going to let me play my game? Then I'm going to give you the minimum effort required to do what you want me to do." Now, there's really no way for me to quantify this. I don't have any specific examples. It's just the general feeling that I've been getting.
              "Stop eating your sushi."
              "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
              "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
              - Jack Armstrong

              Comment


              • #22
                JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                When you talk about his time in Houston, the issue isn't lack of success, it's how he behaved. Specifically, when he came out and said (and I'm paraphrasing) "Either McChale goes or I go" http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/79...n-mchale-coach. He's a would be coach killer. That's a terrible thing to have on your resume.

                Now, I watched that incredible little stretch that he had at the beginning of the year, and I've watched him be very average since he came back from the injury. One way to explain the difference in the way he's played is what we've already read a million times: pre-injury, he was playing like himself, post-injury, he was forced into playing like Jose.

                But the entire post-injury run, I've always got the sense that he was holding back. Not holding back in the sense of "I can't make such-and-such a play because coach says I can't", but in the sense of "Fine coach, f*** you: you're not going to let me play my game? Then I'm going to give you the minimum effort required to do what you want me to do." Now, there's really no way for me to quantify this. I don't have any specific examples. It's just the general feeling that I've been getting.
                I respectfully disagree your opinion but I do appreciate the fact you are not pawning it off as fact.... something I probably should attempt to do more often.

                Comment


                • #23
                  I'm not biased against Lowry; he's just been not very good this year -- and close to the same his whole career. I actually like his style of play, too -- just not as a starting PG with THIS set of players expecting to run THIS kind of offense (which actually isn't based on isos, as some people seem to think. He doesn't work in this system, with these players.

                  Look, if you want to keep Lowry, keep him. But then you need to change the system you're trying to run, and the other players you're running it with. Lowry, Derozan, and Gay is NOT a winning backcourt -- that's the basis of my opinion. Together, they won't be consistently effective, because their individual needs to do so are incompatible (volume shots, ISOs!, etc.). So spin it any way you want, I'm not biased against any single player.

                  But I'm definitely not prepared to pin the blame on Casey, who was clearly responsible for last year's remarkable progression in terms of style of play and commitment to the plan. The coach didn't change, but the players did; it's irrational not to at least consider that maybe its the players who are more to blame for the regression in all areas this year. It's a pretty huge leap in logic to do that, and shows an unjustified bias against the coach.
                  Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    jimmie wrote: View Post
                    ...But I'm definitely not prepared to pin the blame on Casey, who was clearly responsible for last year's remarkable progression in terms of style of play and commitment to the plan. The coach didn't change, but the players did; it's irrational not to at least consider that maybe its the players who are more to blame for the regression in all areas this year. It's a pretty huge leap in logic to do that, and shows an unjustified bias against the coach.
                    Coach is the one who determines style of play. It's not five guys going out there and determining what they are going to do. They are following a script. If they don't they sit. Coach, plus five assistants, plus the video and analytics guys make decisions about how to deal with each team.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      jimmie wrote: View Post
                      I'm not biased against Lowry; he's just been not very good this year -- and close to the same his whole career. I actually like his style of play, too -- just not as a starting PG with THIS set of players expecting to run THIS kind of offense (which actually isn't based on isos, as some people seem to think. He doesn't work in this system, with these players.

                      Look, if you want to keep Lowry, keep him. But then you need to change the system you're trying to run, and the other players you're running it with. Lowry, Derozan, and Gay is NOT a winning backcourt -- that's the basis of my opinion. Together, they won't be consistently effective, because their individual needs to do so are incompatible (volume shots, ISOs!, etc.). So spin it any way you want, I'm not biased against any single player.

                      But I'm definitely not prepared to pin the blame on Casey, who was clearly responsible for last year's remarkable progression in terms of style of play and commitment to the plan. The coach didn't change, but the players did; it's irrational not to at least consider that maybe its the players who are more to blame for the regression in all areas this year. It's a pretty huge leap in logic to do that, and shows an unjustified bias against the coach.
                      I'd have to disagree with you on this one ....

                      I see Lowry as a lead guard who changes ends very well. He has the ability to rebound which is actually a plus because he facilitates transition opportunities. When you have that & 2 athletic wing players to run with, what you get is a myriad of fastbreak opportunities which makes the game a lot easier. I'm not 100% sure about this [simply based on myself watching every game], Lowry gets most of his assists in open court opportunities.

                      If the Raptors choose to translate defensive stops (blocks, turnovers, rebounds) into transition opportunities, I see them having a lot of success because we have 2 very athletic finishers in Gay and DeRozan, an athletic floor runner in Amir & a point guard who thrives in a faster pace in Lowry.

                      In terms of half court execution, I came to a realization that the mid-season trade threw off any sort of chemistry this team had leading up to the trade -- this includes the close games won soon after Rudy Gay came into the picture. I know this has been overplayed, but it really does take time to get accustomed to each other's tendencies & sweet spots. Looking at Miami's first season with the big three, majority of their half court sets simply involved LeBron James and Dwyane Wade taking turns isolating or running the screen and roll.

                      As of late, Lowry has done a very good job of initiating the offense (because well, he gets to call them 40% of the time). Rudy and DeMar are developing some synergy on offense & Rudy has also taken a step back in quarterbacking his own shots. They are more capable of playing off each other & the ball is not sticking as much as a few weeks back. The success of this team will be dependent on DeRozan and Gay's abilities to knock down the three point shots. It will open lanes for the drive and kick game that Lowry really excels at.

                      What I am seeing from Lowry is a vast improvement in establishing his presence on the court. His timing on his passes has gotten better, his usage of screens has gotten better, he pushes the ball more, he picks his spots driving and kicking. Overall, his impact on the court has gotten tremendously better -- and it comes with more trust from the coach. There is more freedom in our offense that plays to the strengths of DeMar, Lowry and Rudy altogether.

                      Casey is a defensive coach & he will always preach defense -- and I admire that about him. I will say that his decision of handing Lowry the "keys" to the offense is one of the better decisions he has made thus far. The key to sustaining our defense is the synergy between the big guys. Valanciunas, for all the praises he has gotten for his offensive impact, needs to recognize rotations faster. To his credit, he has gotten better which has resulted in less fouls and more playing time. Amir Johnson's impact defensively is underrated too -- & Quincy Acy has impressed me as well.

                      What triggered our defense is the shift away from the small ball -- thus, improving our rim protection & getting easier opportunities on offense. Rudy and DeMar are getting easier shots because the bulk of those shots come within the flow of the offense, instead of single handedly facilitating a shot in half court.

                      I've rambled on about other things, but the point is, with Lowry gaining the coach's trust, he is dictating the pace of the game better, the flow of the shots are coming from drive and kick opportunities which has resulted in better & easier shots for DeRozan and Gay -- which is probably why their %'s have increased as of late.

                      If Casey can show he can adapt his style of coaching, move a little bit away from the "structured" flex offense and hand his players more freedom -- AS LONG AS THEY PLAY THEIR BUTTS OFF ON DEFENSE, what we can expect is a more efficient output from this line-up.

                      The bench is another story. But our first line-up can compete with the best of them. I can only assume that an off season of improvement & better chemistry that comes with training camp & more time together will only result in better basketball for the Toronto Raptors.
                      “I don’t create controversies. They’re there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.”

                      -- Charles Barkley

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I agree. I'm actually happy with Lowry leading this starting lineup.

                        What we do need to address:
                        -a smart reliable backup PG
                        -a defensive wing who can hit the 3 (ross, fields?)
                        -another center that could backup or start
                        in masai we trust

                        water covers 98% of the earth, Mitchell Robinson covers the other 2%

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I am satisfied with Lowry being our starting PG. I see us sticking with the core of Lowry-Derozan-Gay-Amir-JV with Ross and Fields being the wings off the bench and I think BC will go after Livingston or Maynor if FA for the backup PG and have JL3 being a 3rd stringer. I think if next season is a failure as in we don't make the playoffs or get bounced easily in the first round then I would not be surpised if BC gets the boot and the new GM comes in and trades trades away everyone other than JV and tries to go after Wiggins or a high lottery draft pick. But to answer the question I am happy with Lowry and Derozan at the 1-2 next year and Hopefully we get Livingston or a pass first pg like that and Ross develops more consistency or Fields regains his jumpshot from his rookie season.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            torch19 wrote: View Post
                            I'd have to disagree with you on this one ....

                            I see Lowry as a lead guard who changes ends very well. He has the ability to rebound which is actually a plus because he facilitates transition opportunities. When you have that & 2 athletic wing players to run with, what you get is a myriad of fastbreak opportunities which makes the game a lot easier. I'm not 100% sure about this [simply based on myself watching every game], Lowry gets most of his assists in open court opportunities.

                            If the Raptors choose to translate defensive stops (blocks, turnovers, rebounds) into transition opportunities, I see them having a lot of success because we have 2 very athletic finishers in Gay and DeRozan, an athletic floor runner in Amir & a point guard who thrives in a faster pace in Lowry.

                            In terms of half court execution, I came to a realization that the mid-season trade threw off any sort of chemistry this team had leading up to the trade -- this includes the close games won soon after Rudy Gay came into the picture. I know this has been overplayed, but it really does take time to get accustomed to each other's tendencies & sweet spots. Looking at Miami's first season with the big three, majority of their half court sets simply involved LeBron James and Dwyane Wade taking turns isolating or running the screen and roll.

                            As of late, Lowry has done a very good job of initiating the offense (because well, he gets to call them 40% of the time). Rudy and DeMar are developing some synergy on offense & Rudy has also taken a step back in quarterbacking his own shots. They are more capable of playing off each other & the ball is not sticking as much as a few weeks back. The success of this team will be dependent on DeRozan and Gay's abilities to knock down the three point shots. It will open lanes for the drive and kick game that Lowry really excels at.

                            What I am seeing from Lowry is a vast improvement in establishing his presence on the court. His timing on his passes has gotten better, his usage of screens has gotten better, he pushes the ball more, he picks his spots driving and kicking. Overall, his impact on the court has gotten tremendously better -- and it comes with more trust from the coach. There is more freedom in our offense that plays to the strengths of DeMar, Lowry and Rudy altogether.

                            Casey is a defensive coach & he will always preach defense -- and I admire that about him. I will say that his decision of handing Lowry the "keys" to the offense is one of the better decisions he has made thus far. The key to sustaining our defense is the synergy between the big guys. Valanciunas, for all the praises he has gotten for his offensive impact, needs to recognize rotations faster. To his credit, he has gotten better which has resulted in less fouls and more playing time. Amir Johnson's impact defensively is underrated too -- & Quincy Acy has impressed me as well.

                            What triggered our defense is the shift away from the small ball -- thus, improving our rim protection & getting easier opportunities on offense. Rudy and DeMar are getting easier shots because the bulk of those shots come within the flow of the offense, instead of single handedly facilitating a shot in half court.

                            I've rambled on about other things, but the point is, with Lowry gaining the coach's trust, he is dictating the pace of the game better, the flow of the shots are coming from drive and kick opportunities which has resulted in better & easier shots for DeRozan and Gay -- which is probably why their %'s have increased as of late.

                            If Casey can show he can adapt his style of coaching, move a little bit away from the "structured" flex offense and hand his players more freedom -- AS LONG AS THEY PLAY THEIR BUTTS OFF ON DEFENSE, what we can expect is a more efficient output from this line-up.

                            The bench is another story. But our first line-up can compete with the best of them. I can only assume that an off season of improvement & better chemistry that comes with training camp & more time together will only result in better basketball for the Toronto Raptors.
                            Agreed with everything you said, I have sort of the same train of thought and process you are seeing from the team. It's kind of what I've been saying all along.

                            Allowing Lowry to really quicken the pace, and facilitate via penetration is the best way for this team to get good looks offensively, & defense helps to acquire these opportunities.

                            Good post Torch.
                            Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Just wanted to throw my name into the trade-demar hat. One point that nobody seems to have made (or that i just missed) is that the raps have a chance to evolve a much more balanced offence with valanciunas in the low post, but the derozan-gay combo ruins any potential of proper spacing. Something has to give there.

                              If im colangelo my first off-season call is to orlando to see if a derozan for afflalo+sweetener deal can be worked out. Theres so much to be gained from swapping derozan for a guy who knows his role, only takes good shots and plays defense. Its hard to jusrify trading away the player who will likely be best in the long run, but this might be a case of addition by subtraction.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Lark Benson wrote: View Post
                                Just wanted to throw my name into the trade-demar hat. One point that nobody seems to have made (or that i just missed) is that the raps have a chance to evolve a much more balanced offence with valanciunas in the low post, but the derozan-gay combo ruins any potential of proper spacing. Something has to give there.

                                If im colangelo my first off-season call is to orlando to see if a derozan for afflalo+sweetener deal can be worked out. Theres so much to be gained from swapping derozan for a guy who knows his role, only takes good shots and plays defense. Its hard to jusrify trading away the player who will likely be best in the long run, but this might be a case of addition by subtraction.
                                I had Afflalo on my fantasy team this year & I can assure you, he is not efficient by any means. But it could have been caused by his increased role in the offense. He does have the reputation of being an above average to really good defender.
                                “I don’t create controversies. They’re there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.”

                                -- Charles Barkley

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X