Her name is Synergy. I know the name makes it sound like she’s an old stripper with dark circles under her eyes and smoke bellowing through her unbrushed teeth, and that my friends is so not true. She’s got a great personality and tells me all kinds of stories about basketball and stuff. This morning when she woke up next to me after a night of me registering with her, I finally had a chance to put her in my lap and ask her about how Andrea Bargnani and DeMar DeRozan are used, and if they have a chance of coming remotely close to some of the greats of the game. She replied:

DeMar DeRozan and Ray Allen

DeRozan – Detailed Allen

I’m just getting used to seeing this kind of data and I’m more impressed by the fact that we have access to it more than anything. I’m not going to “analyze” this and draw any conclusions from it, just going to sit here in awe of how much detailed statistical analysis is possible if one has the time. As expected with DeRozan, his primary source of touches is through spot-up opportunities, off-screen and in transition. I’ll compare it to the master of the art – Ray Allen – and hope that DeRozan’s on his way there. Look at Allen in off-screen, the guy is a beast!

Andrea Bargnani and Dirk Nowitzki

Bargnani – Detail Nowitzki

There are a lot of similarities in Bargnani and Dirk’s game, Nowitzki’s just better at everything. The key differences are the post-up numbers, Nowitzki operates a lot more in the post, making him an asset to his teammates. Operating in the post is such a luxury, you have a much better view of the court than if you’re driving and kicking, and you also have the time to survey things and choose from multiple options. Passing + Post-up game = Deadly combination. Of course, you can use your post-up game all night and still suck, just ask Jahidi White. Nowitzki is a classical shot-maker, he doesn’t have a set, predictable game, and can score from any angle, with his preference being a mid-range one-legged jumper while he’s hailing a cab. The surprising part here is to notice the relatively low number of isolation sequences Dirk is used in. Bargnani’s “one-on-one” number is significantly greater and this to me is a product of being part of a poor team, where too much is demanded of mediocre players and they’re asked to play beyond their ability. Does that make sense?

I also like to share my girl with others.

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  • J_hoss

    Are you able to find out how effective the players are in these scenarios (like, ppg, or fg%, for each scenario), or just how often the players are used in these scenarios? ‘Cause that would be good info indeed.

    • arsenalist
      • J_hoss

        Interesting. Small sample size, but Derozan is pretty effective posting-up, which is great (ranked 24th!). Being able to post-up is a great asset that allows you to create something different from an iso play.

        • Nilanka15

          Agreed. Every player (including PGs) can benefit from having some post-up ability. Such a skill shouldn’t be restricted to big men.

      • Boomer

        According to these numbers, Bargnani gets slightly more offensive rebounds than dirk? or do these numbers say that regardless of how many they both get, Bargs’ ends a possession more often than Dirk does, should they both get the same amount of offensive rebounds?
        Does that make sense, did I confuse myself?

        • cesco

          For the season , Andrea got 1.1 off rbs/game to Dirk 0.7 off rbs/game . So it make sense that the percentage of plays following an offensive rebound are proportionally higher for Andrea than for Dirk in relation to all other offensive plays a player undertake .

          • Boomer

            Thanks, I could have just looked up the stats myself, usually I do. I was thinking that Dirk could still get more offensive rebounds, but that he passes out of them more, so he didn’t have a higher usage. I guess instead of checking the stats I just expected Dirk to get more than that.

  • Kelsie Mcpherson

    “There are a lot of similarities in Bargnani and Dirk’s game”

    After watching Dirk for the last decade and this playoffs in particular, there is very little similarities between their game other than height and they can both shoot.

    The comparisons between Dirk and Andrea needs to stop. Dirk is arguably playing the best basketball of any other player in these playoffs and simply cannot be guarded, is a former MVP and a guaranteed Hall of Famer.

    I also wouldn’t compare usage analysis of DeRozan to Allen as I don’t see much Ray Ray in his game. I acutally see more Joe Johnson in his game which is no shame either.

    • arsenalist

      Similarities as in they try to utilize the same unorthodox tools/skills to gain advantages. Nowitzki is better, period. I agree, the comparisons needed to stop two years ago. I’m just giving talking points here, and will be till the season starts which is a looooong time away.

    • AJM

      If you would have continued reading you would have noticed that he mentioned “Nowitzki’s just better at everything”.

    • arsenalist

      Also, on the Joe Johnson comment. See the Rapcast from a few weeks back with phdsteve. Got that one covered a while back.

      Richard Hamilton would also have been a good comparison. Dunno why I chose Allen, maybe cuz I saw him play on the weekend.

    • Guest

      Bargnani is a soft, non-rebounding and non-winning shooter trapped in Pau Gasol’s body. If Bargs had Dirk’s athleticism and heart he would be as good – very high skill level, wrong body to play as he does.

  • RapthoseLeafs

    *** Similar ***
    Related in appearance or nature; alike though not identical.

    *** Equal ***
    Having the same quantity, measure, or value as another.

    In this Raptor world of high expectations, and continuously lower results, we’ve managed to transfer this trend Bargnani’s way. And some of these reasons include:

    a) 1st round pick (despite it being a dud draft)
    b) Designated Franchise player (wtf) – certainly not my call. Some fans deny making this designation (for him), yet hold him to the criteria.
    c) We have no “true” Centre – so by default, he’s the Raptor Centre.

    Aside from “great expectations” or more appropriately “unreasonable expectations”, the Bargnani comparisons relative to Dirk, have to take into account pay cheques.

    Dirk’s Pay:
    2011-12 … $19.1 million
    2012-13 …. 20.9 million
    2013-14 …. 22.7 million

    Bargnani’s Pay:
    2011-12 … $9.0 million
    2012-13 …. 10.0 million
    2013-14 …. 11.0 million
    For the price of Dirk, you could get a Chandler/Bargnani combo. Which means you can spend more money on your SF, or PG. If the new CBA impacts payroll (as some hint), then this C-B scenario has more merit.

    Given the similarites, and watching the Mavs (with their defensive Centre) win the first 2 games IN L.A., I can’t help wondering …. what if.

    The more I think about it, the more I believe Raptor luck is really an oxymoron.

    • Theswirsky

      You are really trying to sell this, “its a fans perspective fault”. Honestly thats crap. If Bargnani was used like his productivity dictated, yeah his ‘expectations’ would be much lower. So would his pay. So would his usage. So would the fans attention towards him.

      But he’s not. So blame that on BC or Triano if you want… but don’t blame fans for recognizing the fault in this idea. The waste of a very rare draft pick he has become (regardless of whether he was the ‘right’ choice at the time or not)

      As for pay. What a limited factor you look at. If the Raps had Kwame Brown and Adam Morrison, they’d have a entire slew of money left to use. So that would make the team better right? Oh wait no, that doesn’t work because they suck. So what if we use your idea. Nowitski is comparable Bargnani so if you match Chandler with Bargnani you save money right? Oh wait. Dirk was this good even before Chandler… doesn’t that throw a wrench in things?

      The difference in their payroll can be seen in results. Nowitski a perennial all-star on a team that contends every year. Bargnani a bust that has provided nothing to his team. Nowitski at 20 mil a year is a steal compared to Bargnani at 10 mil a year. There is no ‘what if’. There is a ‘what is’. You are comparing a potential hall of famer to a nobody and saying if some guy was beside him they’d be comparable. There not.

      There is nothing unreasonable about expect your #1 draft pick, 7ft C, ‘franchise’ player, using up 1/6th of your salary room to be a net positive to your team. To rebound a basketball, block a shot, play down low, box out a man, set a screen, play efficiently, look like a basketball player and not a 16 year old who grew to fast.

      The problem isn’t high expectations… its that some people’s expectations are so incredibly low

      • c_bcm

        The Mav’s still needed Chandler for the same reason the Raps need a defensive center. Because Dirk can’t handle the job. Why is Barg’s situation any different?

        Barg’s isn’t as productive as Dirk, but neither does he get paid as much. SO I don’t see the problem you have with the arguement.

        • Theswirsky

          the situation is the same… the player beside Chandler are not. Therefore the result will not be the same.

          The problem is… same as above. The two players are not comparable in talent or experience or results. So comparing their salaries, no matter what they are, without actually comparing the productivity, is not only pointless but inaccurate.

          The thoughts in Rapthoseleafs posts, completely rely on Bargnani and Dirk being comparable as players. Everything from stats to results to keeping one’s eyes open during a basketball game say otherwise.

          • c_bcm

            I disagree, because Barg’s salary is proportional to his productivity. You don’t have to build around him, but you can still build with him.

      • sleepz

        “There is no ‘what if’. There is a ‘what is’. You are comparing a potential hall of famer to a nobody and saying if some guy was beside him they’d be comparable. There not.”

        That post was no joke and the truth all wrapped up in one.

      • cesco

        ” Bargnani a bust that has provided nothing to his team ” .
        First of all , the team has won more games percentage wise with Andrea on the team than without him . Second , he has the most points/game and the best efficiency on the team . Third , you need a brain transplant .

        • Theswirsky

          “the team has won more games percentage wise with Andrea on the team than without him”

          so did Reggie Evans. So did Amir. Think of how much better they’d be with Chandler beside them!!! “What if”!!

          “Second , he has the most points/game and the best efficiency on the team”

          yes he had the most points…. and silly me always forgets that thats all that matters. Efficiency? Please post these numbers comparing Bargnani’s efficiency. (Warning… It is stats and Bargnani, which never leads to good things when trying to justify Bargnani.)

          “Third , you need a brain transplant .”

          had one. It always me to comprehend reality.

          • cesco

            If you have a brain then support your claim that AB contributed NOTHING to the team with FACTS . Otherwise shut up .

            • Theswirsky


              he’s not hard to find on that list.

              • cesco

                And the guy on top of that list helped his team go from 15 wins to 17 wins . Perhaps he did not contribute to those two additional wins , the other players on the team did . That tells you something about the worthiness of that stat .

                • mountio

                  Still have sworn off the AB arguments. But, its hard to argue the stat shoes anything about value to a team winning when K Love is on top of it on the 2nd worst team in the league

            • cesco

              Do you need a brain larger than a pea to understand that if BC and JT had given the highest usage on the team to a player who contributed NOTHING then they would have been sent to an asylum . I deduct that your brain is smaller than a pea .

              • Theswirsky

                still waiting on you to support your claims……..

                • cesco

                  Well , I have to repeat myself because with your pea brain , rational thoughts are not your forte . Why did the coach and the GM, who knew they could (and still can) lose their job at the end of the season , kept playing Andrea so much since he was not contributing anything to the team , perhaps they received an offer which could not be refused , you know what I mean I hope.

                • Theswirsky

                  “I have to repeat myself because with your pea brain, rational thoughs are not your forte”

                  did you forget saying Bargnani had

                  “the best efficiency on the team”

                  … which a rational person would realize I was referring to (especially since I was asked to support my statement). Just off hand you didn’t even support your statement about BC/Triano, you did just (as you said) repeated yourself. Repeating what you just said is hardly supporting that same statement… but I guess that just a minor detail

                • cesco


                  click on ‘regular season’ and then ‘show stats’ , Andrea is # 60 , the first Raptor .

                • Theswirsky

                  Order on the list:

                  Amir Johnson
                  Ed Davis
                  Joey Dorsey
                  Reggie Evans
                  Jose Calderon

                  then Andrea Bargnani

                  Or did you think it would be better to compare players who don’t play comparable minutes? Is that what a rational, larger than pea-brained person does?

                  What about fg%, ts%, eFG%, points per shot? Is NBA efficiency rating the only stat we can use?

                  Anyways I warned you, you didn’t listen.

                • You 2 knucleheads can argue using advanced stats to the cows come home.
                  I can see Bargnani is useless with my own eyes.Yeah he will hit a 3, but allow a blow by from his man on the next possession ,miss a quick 3, miss an offensive rebound and let his check get a putback, hit a nice fadeaway then allow a point guard a dunk while stepping out of the way and putting his arms up to give the impression he has going to try to block it but didn’t get there quick enough.rinse and repeat.

    • c_bcm

      Awesome. Love that.

      I hate the cynicism on this site for players who are very good, have obvious flaws, but are paid accordingly. AKA Bargs.

      It mostly stems from a couple people who reiterate the same stuff over and over again, and then go after people who dare to disagree with them. This has lead to a bias in the posts by people who generally hate Bargs and what he brings to this team.

      I still like the guy on the Raps, and think we shouldn’t give up on him just yet. His contract is a good one, so there’s no pressure to move him.

    • sleepz

      I’d much rather pay the price of Dirk than have Bargnani and Chandler and whatever other options are available. Dirk is a special and rare talent and has proven his worth year after year.

      Dallas is winning through more than just their defensive center. Their winning because Dirk is arguably playing the best ball of any player still in the playoffs and they are getting contributions from 2-8 in the rotation. Chandler has contributed but don’t be confused by Dallas’s success. Tyson has been good but Dirk is the straw that stirs that drink.

      The fans don’t have any expectations for Bargnani anymore other than him being traded for some ‘assets’. The only thing I hope is that the two’s names never meet again in the same sentence, because there is NO comparison on any level other than two players being born outside of the good ole’ USA.

      • RapthoseLeafs

        [ “I’d much rather pay the price of Dirk than have Bargnani and Chandler”]

        You of course must have meant Dirk AND Chandler, because Dallas probably wouldn’t be beating the Mavs without a true Centre.

        Assuming this is what you meant, I’d of course want Nowitski & Chandler, way before I’d want Bargs & Chandler.

        And yes, Dallas is more than their defensive Centre. But looking at the stats, they show that Chandler elevated this team to what they are, and need to be, in order to truly contend. Chandler was 3rd place in Defensive player of the year – in a league that we all know sees Howard as pretty much automatic for the No. 1 spot (to this award).

        [ ” The only thing I hope is that the two’s names never meet again in the same sentence, because there is NO comparison on any level ” ]

        Funny how ironic it was that Cuban & gang jumped all over the Chandler idea (that BC started).

        • Theswirsky

          you do know that Dallas had been in the playoffs every year for a decade right? That they have been to the 2nd round 7 times? That they went to the third round twice? That they went to the NBA finals before?

          and that Chandler just joined the team this year?

          Just checking because you are talking as if Dallas (and Dirk) wasn’t really that good before…….

          • Statement

            Rapthoseleafs is a good guy. Wrong, but a good guy.

            Rapthose, I just want to say.

            Ass titties, ass and titties…ass ass titties titties ass and titties.

            • Statement


              Let’s just hope that Miami wins

              • Statement

                Doesn’t win.

                I can’t believe I made that mistake. F.U. Miami

                • mountio

                  Dont worry – Miami cant win. Their team isnt built around a defensive minded center … the most important element of championship teams. Just ask Tim and Nilanka …

                • binderjeet

                  the team has 2 1/2 (possibly three lol) franchise players, which route do you think is easier for the raptors, idiot.

                • mountio

                  The point isnt what route is easier, “idiot”, the point is what route is actually going to result in success. The NBA is a simple league .. the teams with the best players win, and the only way to win is to get guys with star talent on your roster. Star talent typically defined as an offensive player who demands double teams and can score in the clutch. A star player can also be a star on D, of course (KG, DH). 10 n 8 defensive minded big men can be acquired easily enough once you have stars in place (or a team can succeed without them as in the Heat’s case). Without stars, however, the rest is all moot.
                  You can argue whether AB ever could have been that star (i thought so .. but after this season, I do not any longer. It has absolutely zero to do with his defense and rebounding and everythig to do with the fact that he didnt prove himself as a clutch scorer who either scored, got fouled or got something for teamates in the fourth quarter), but the premise is undeniable … spend as much time as humanyly possible seeking out stars and worry about role players once youve got them (See perkins in okc post durant, westbrok and even ibaka). Doing it in reverse makes no sense.
                  Ive argued the point all year and the heat will soon prove it (as much as part of me doesnt want to see it)

                • Theswirsky

                  Ofcourse because Joel Anthony and Eric Dampier are bad defenders…..

                  I would also mention, anytime you have 2 of the best players to ever play the game you have a leg up in any situation.

                • mountio

                  Joel Anthony is an ok defender .. but hes 6’9′ and hardly a “beast in the middle” .. Dampier is hardly playing. Joel is akin to Ed D (Ed more of a defensive presense), so if you buy him as enough of a defensive prsences, you should buy that the raps are ok in that department. The point is that the argument that “no team can win with AB (or a similar player) at the 4/5” and “the most important factor to a cahmpionship team is a defensive big man” are flat out ridiculus arguments.

                • Theswirsky

                  Lets just say your right for arguments sake…using the Miami Heat as an example, you are basically saying if a team has Lebron James and Dwayne Wade they can win with Andrea Bargnani as a big.

                  So tell me whats more ridiculous… finding big men that actually defend and rebound or obtaining 2 of the best players to ever play the game?

                • mountio

                  Whats the most ridiculus is getting rid of your best player (again, this is all assuming he actually improved his offense this year and became the clutch scorer I thought he would) in exchange for a dime a dozen 10 and 8 guy because of a false theory that you cant win in the NBA without a defensive big.

        • kelsie mcpherson

          “For the price of Dirk, you could get a Chandler/Bargnani combo.”

          I responded to that comment. I would take Dirk over a Bargnani/Chandler combo. Dallas also has Haywood who may not be as good a player as Chandler but if you gave me the choice between Dirk or having Andrea and Chandler I would take Dirk without hesitation.

          Once again, I respect Chandler’s game and he has indeed helped them but without Dirk elevating his game even further for the playoffs, it doesn’t matter what Chandler does.

          Not sure if Cuban jumped over what BC thought of (if thats the basis for your andrea/dirk comparison, more power to you) or if it was just a thought by Cuban that they could get a center that would give them a really good big rotation especially with the Lakers size, we’ll never know.

          How do you know Cuban wasn’t already in negotiations with Charlottle and Jordan ended up agreeing to the deal with the Raptors instead? Your assumptions could be right but to assume BC started anything other than a Raptor quick slide to the cellar is the only thing I can give him credit for at this point in time.

    • Statement

      Come on bro,


      Ass, titties, ass and titties


  • c_bcm

    It would be interesting to do these comparisons when the players are at the same number of years in the league…ie use Ray Ray’s stats from his second year. Dirk’s 5th, etc….

    Also, it might be neat to show productivity and projected productivity btwn bargs and dirk on a year-by-year basis. Could we see when Dirk turned potential into productivity and compare that to where Bargs is in his development?

    • Theswirsky

      dirk vs bargs (yr 5)

      Pts 25.1 21.4
      Fg% 46.3 44.8
      3pt% 38.0 34.5
      ft% 88.1 82
      Reb 9.9 5.2
      Ass. 3 1.8
      Turn. 1.9 2.3
      Stls 1.4 0.5
      Blks 1.0 0.7

      Double Doubles
      41 vs 2

      Team Record
      60-22 vs 22-60


      Franchise record season, loss in the western conference finals to the eventual NBA champs (Spurs) after losing Nowitzki for the series in game 3 vs 2nd worst record in franchise history, no playoffs, and numerous losses to NBA chumps

      Bunch of random stuff from Wikipedia about Dirk from 2002-2003 (his 5th year):

      -“was named “Best European Basketballer” in a general survey of the NBA general managers”

      -“Nowitzki delivered a clutch performance in Game 7, scoring 30 points, grabbing 19 rebounds and playing strong defense, and led the Mavericks to a series-deciding 112–99 win

      -ESPN lauded Nowitzki as “Big D,”

      vs. never hearing anything like that about Bargnani.

      Random quote from his 5th year vs one from Bargnani

      Dirk -“”We had to be more physical in the paint and rebound the ball”

      Bargs “I do the harder stuff” or “I should be able to….”

      Side Note: Tyson Chandler not on the team. C’s were Raef Lafrentz and Shawn Bradley.

      Should we make more comparisons?

      • Statement

        Onions, baby, Onions.

        Also, ass and titties.

  • Rpsfan95

    interesting stuff, and looks nicer than those red and green lined stat sheets

    unrelated note: shouldn’t Ed Davis be given an automatic starting spot now that he’s healthy in the same way Demar was given one 2 yrs ago ?

  • RapthoseLeafs

    Not sure why I’m arguing this, as it seems a bad season needs to be pinned somewhere.

    [You are really trying to sell this, “its a fans perspective fault”.]

    You missed this part (or at least the operative word “some”):
    “SOME fans deny making this designation (for him), yet hold him to the criteria.”

    I’d put you in that category, along with SOME others.

    [ “If Bargnani was used like his productivity dictated, yeah his ‘expectations’ would be much lower. “]

    Andrea’s productivity was better (in previous years), when he wasn’t the primary offensive weapon, AND (not or) expected to be the defensive stopper that defines a defensive Centre.

    [ “Nowitski a perennial all-star on a team that contends every year. Bargnani a bust that has provided nothing to his team. Nowitski at 20 mil a year is a steal compared to Bargnani at 10 mil a year. ‘]

    I’m not gonna even debate the bust comment. As for salary, your numbers are misleading. Two years from now, yes, he’ll make 10.0 million. And yes, he’ll average 10 million a season (over his contract). BUT, one can’t critique this past season and say it wasn’t worth 10 million, when in fact he only made 8.0 million. ROI has to be grounded in real facts, not future value.

    [ “So what if we use your idea. Nowitski is comparable Bargnani so if you match Chandler with Bargnani you save money right? Oh wait. Dirk was this good even before Chandler… doesn’t that throw a wrench in things? ‘]

    First up … I NEVER said Andrea was comparable. I said he was similar. That’s why I put up the word definitions.

    What I said besides the similarity, and the connection to Chandler, is that Raptors can afford to have a (potential) 20 million man at the PG or SF position (obviously a top level talent), and be able to mimic Dallas in the Front Court (with a lighter but strong enough version). Having a powerful option at either the PG or SF positions, would negate the loss relative to the Dirk/Andrea difference. Check with an Accountant if you need to understand the economics here.

    As for Dirk being good before Chandler – yes, you’re right. But they’re beating the Lakers in their series – resoundingly too – and as such, this “next step” in the evolution of Dallas, is a function of Chandler, whether you care to admit that or not.

    [ “There is nothing unreasonable about expect your #1 draft pick, 7ft C, ‘franchise’ player, using up 1/6th of your salary room to be a net positive to your team. “]

    In some respects I agree. But because Andrea’s been expected to be a Offensive star, as well as the defensive stalwart (in the Centre position), expectations went beyond what is “normal”. That draft sucked – we can all agree. Roy will turn out to be his teams’ Achilles heel (bone on bone for 16.5 million per), while Rondo was pure luck (or a very astute scouting organization). Aldridge was a great pick, but one has to wonder if his fate would’ve been different with the Raptors.

    Stating that you expect more from a #1 draft pick (despite it being a crappy draft), only reinforces my earlier statement – too high expectations. In retrospect, this was Bargnani’s 1st year as the #1 scoring option, all the while trying use him to “paper over” a severe shortage in true Centres on this team.

    I had expectations that Bosh would lead us to the play-offs in his final year. That’s not a mere reflection of his ability, but simply that “I expected the Raptors to be in the play-offs”. I expect a lot from players, and yes, I was disappointed in Andrea. Just like I was disappointed in most of the Raptor players this year. Trouble is, Andrea became the focus of high expectations, and low results.

    Someone has to be the pinata. Especially when you play in Toronto.

    • c_bcm

      I agree with everything except Rondo. He was off the hook because the big three were automatic assists for him. Now that the big three are struggling, Rondo ain’t putting up the numbers. His is a case of a mediocre player getting automatically elevated to super-stardom because of his team mates.

      Time will tell what his career will turn into once KG, PP, and RA retire. But I remain extremely skeptical he’ll be able to keep it up to the standards he set the last 5 years.

    • Theswirsky

      you are playing with so many semantics in this post… you and Khandor would have such an amazing debate because neither of you ever seem to “say” anything you do.

      I’m sorry if my expectations are so high that I don’t expect a former #1 pick, highest usage player, who will, over the course of his contract (if you need to be so specific), cost $10 mil dollars a year to NOT be a drain on the team. To NOT be one of the worst rebounding big men of all time. To NOT play basketball like a chucking SG from the WNBA. But I guess thats because I’m such a classy dude.

    • Statement


      Why do you defend Bargs? I know why I discredit him because eyeballs and salaries means that he is an albatross.

      But why do you defend him? Is it because of the constant negativity towards him?

      I remember Bargsbust on Raptorshq, that guy was prophetic.

      Also Rapthoseleafs, I implore you to check out.


  • Juicy

    In Bargina’s defence, when he came into the league, he was never supposed to be Nowitzki, he was sold as a “poor man’s Nowitzki”. It’s just a matter of deciding how poor that man is.

    • Superjesusman

      Dead broke.

      • c_bcm

        Nah. Dead broke would be POB. Bargs is more of an upper middle class. Better than Okur, worse than Dirk.

        • Chuj

          okur was an all-star and has a ring

      • cesco

        Andrea had the most usage on the team , if he is dead broke what about the rest of the team ? . Are they all on skid row ? .

        • Nilanka15

          I’m sure that during his healthy years, most would agree that Okur was a much more valuable piece to the Jazz than Bargnani has ever been to the Raptors.

        • Nilanka15

          Ahhh, the ultimate Bargnani defense….when all else fails, bring up the short-comings of Bargnani’s younger, lesser paid, lower picked, inexperienced teammates.

          “Well, well, well….if Bargnani sucks, what about Alabi?”

          Weak man, just weak.

          • cesco

            I still do not understand why BC and JT gave Andrea the most minutes and the most usage on the team since the pseudo experts in here says he suck so much . Why not have Amir , our best player according to the advance metrics, play the most minutes . By the way , Andrea will be making 10 millions a year no matter how much the haters hate him .

            • yertu damkule

              well, the minutes thing was, IMO, simply a matter of being thin at the 5. the usage was more of a ‘what else do we got’ kind of situation. it’s not as though he was the only guy who touched the ball on offense, but if you’ve got a guy who you MUST play due to lack of either depth or alternatives (see above), and if that guy is only giving you something on one end of the court, seems kind of silly not to try to offset his lack of rebounding/D by having him (attempt to) score in bunches.

              look, the ‘experts’ here generally don’t claim that he ‘sucks,’ but that he doesn’t do enough of the things that the team requires out of that position to offset what he does do rather well (though not as well as his fans would have the world believe), which is score. i know this has been stated ad nauseum, i’m just not sure why you & others of your ilk always seem to try to paint his detractors as a group of imbalanced morons with some irrational vendetta against him. i’ve been saying the same thing for years…i was a supporter of his all the way through year 3…i actually sent liston (i think it was liston….might have been someone else) a detailed breakdown/comparo between bargs & aldridge for the 2nd half of his 3rd season, and suggested that he was on the cusp of becoming a more complete player (their stats per36 were virtually identical). i have no explanation for what’s happened since; as a raptor fan/follower/supporter, i hold out hope that if he remains with the team that he does develop into a more well-rounded player, but i simply can’t afford to waste my time wishing it were so. it’s not a question of money or the fact that plenty of other players suck…if he’s your prime asset, and he’s not the kind of player who’s going to turn a franchise around on his own, then the best option is likely to turn that asset into something while he’s still an asset.

              • cesco

                The team will continue to suck for several years still , whether Andrea is traded or not . If he is traded , then next year someone else , most likely DD , will be crucified and the haters will continue their crazy merry go round. So why not let BC or his successor try to improve the team the best they can and hope that a franchise player is found in the draft one of these years .

  • Statement


    I banged your new gf…but in a variety of ways

    I penetrated deep into the lane….but she grew bored so it turned into an isolation.

    • Statement

      It’s ended with a handoff….though there was only a little bit of dribbling after.

  • Theswirsky

    Mountio: (other thread was getting thin)

    look at the other teams that not only made it to the 2nd round. Look at the bigs there. So use the one outlier (with the 2 hall of fame superstars) out of all the teams to justify how you could win without a defensive stopper in the middle. (although there is yet to be an example of a team being successful with a defensive big man as inept as Bargnani… which is what you would really need to prove you could win with him)
    And also remember, that whatever you think of Damp and Joel Anthony, they still put Bargnani to shame defensively.

    And all debate/arguing aside… after watching these playoffs, do you really still think Bargnani would cut it? Do you really think he could man up against these guys?

    • mountio

      Thanks for moving this – it was getting thin.
      Yes, I do think a player like AB, meaning a tough matchup that can create mismatches and is hard to stop has a role in the playoffs. Clearly that role is not to be a defensive stopper – its to be a scorer that is a super hard match up defensively. Also, understand I am debating the premise, that if AB posted up more, used his skillset to be a clutch scorer, then he could be a valuable member of championship team. And, that the current AB has a much better chance at becoming this matchup nightmare than a 10 n 8 guy, who will never become this (AB might not either, but he at least has a better chance).
      Also – you look at all the teams in the playoffs (ex Heat, arguably ex Celtics with KG being a 4 and JO/SO slow as hell and not much of a defensive presence) and say they have a defensive big man. I look at them and say they have stars. We are both right, but I put forth the stars are WAAAAAAY more important to their success than the defensive bigs.
      I think you need stars to build a winner. If AB will never be a star on offense, then I have no use for him. If he will become one (hes not that far off), then I think hes a valuable peice.
      Stars overcome everything else. The heat (and OKC) and Dallas are showing that. They all have decently well rounded teams, sure, but without Durant, LBJ, Wade, Dirk, the rest is moot. This concept of starting with defensive big is ridiculus. Roll the dice on as many stars as you can find .. and once you find them, the rest will fall into place.