Heat 103, Raptors 95 – Box

Let’s get the Bosh talk out of the way. My favorite chant: Over-rated, over-rated. Short, to the point, no drama, and most of all, accurate. I’m glad he didn’t get booed as bad as Carter since he wasn’t even half the player Vince was. Bosh talk over. Well, not all of it, A-Dub was at the game and I spoke to him after:

Grab the iTunes feed or the plain old feed. You can also download the file (12:50, 4.74MB). Or just listen below:

The start was inspirational as expected, anytime one of the prodigal sons returns there’s excitement and excitement fuels energy, so there was energy. Bargnani and Calderon supplying the offense and the Heat playing their part to ignite the crowd by committing turnovers. The Raptors’ modest hot start was a 12-6 lead, which is when the field goal percentages started to take shape. The Raptors have been allowing too high of a shooting percentage for too long of a time, in fact, they are now officially the worst team in the NBA in opponent field-goal percentage at 48.4%. The Heat shot 61% at the end of the first, 58% at halftime, 57% at the end of the third, and 49% for the game. Overcoming that is going to be tough with Calderon, Johnson, Barbosa, and Weems all misfiring.

DeMar DeRozan and Ed Davis are looking like the product of this season. It’s been a dismal year by all accounts with little to look forward to each game, but if these two can show the signs of quality in their young NBA careers, it could just all be worth it. The improvements in their games have been incremental, DeRozan’s jumper has gotten steadier and Davis is figuring out what it takes to play the NBA’s version of the power forward position. Last night at the ACC as people were focusing on Chris Bosh, my gaze was fixed on the two Raptors that have the best chance of bringing some hope to this stricken land. Both were good and Bargnani was stellar, that and the combination of decent overall effort made this a night to be pleased with.

Amir Johnson was tasked with guarding Bosh and I was a little disappointed in him, his effort was immense as usual and his activity-level high, it just felt that he let Bosh off the hook too easily. Johnson fell for some very soft pump-fakes which sent Bosh to the line and allowed him to get comfortable early in the game. On the other end, Johnson missed a lot of close-range efforts after well-run pick ‘n rolls, these lost points should have have helped the Raptors into a halftime lead, instead it was a 50-46 deficit. No complains with the scoreline, it just could have been better. Andrea Bargnani’s jumper was working right from the outset and despite his defensive failings, he kept on chugging and attacking Bosh, often with success. He finished with 38 point on 15-26 FG, you have every right to criticize his rebounding and defense, however, on this night this game is a blowout without him. I enjoyed him scoring on Bosh, and as A-Dub mentioned in the Rapcast, a lot has to do with his size allowing him to get a shot off against the shorter Bosh. If you recall, Bosh was often torn to shreds by pretty much every power forward ranging from Zach Randolph to Boris Diaw, so this wasn’t exactly a shock.

The Heat were looking to get Bosh involved and gave him the needed touches, but whenever they hit a wall, Dwayne Wade put an end to the charity-show and did the job himself. Weems, Barbosa are no match for him, and he was unstoppable. He could easily go for 60 points if he wanted to against the Raptors’ defense, but just turned it on when needed. LeBron James had a “quiet” 23/13/8 night, barely broke a sweat and coasted throughout. Weems’ defense was uninspired at best, the expectations for his defense aren’t high and he still manages to fall short. His man-ball-basket angles are all wrong, he loses sight of his check because his concentration levels drops, and in the man-to-man matchups he’s not the tenacious player we need him to be, or more importantly for him, he needs to be to secure a spot on an NBA roster. The rotations to the perimeter have always been weak and so they were again last night. To criticize these players for not stopping Wade and James is silly, though, you have to expect to get beat off the bounce which is when help-defense and interior rotations come into play. The Raptors suck at that. Period.

Leandro Barbosa’s offensive game was forgettable and his defense wasn’t much better either, in his stints guarding House he was picked off by screens (Dampier sets really good ones, almost broke Bayless in half) and the close-outs weren’t quick enough. The Raptors’ lack of communication didn’t help him either, but even then, he has to individually do a better job guarding a known shooter. Chalmers and House hit two threes to push the Miami lead to six late in the second half, a half that saw the Raptors fight and claw to stay in the game. Bargnani and DeRozan each had 14 at the half in a 50-46 game. The Heat’ slow start and the Raptors two main offensive guns keeping this close.

No complaints at this point, Bosh was getting his without being highly efficient, the Raptors were missing a lot of close-range shots, partly due to Dampier’s presence, and the effort level was good. The Raptors would always need a small miracle to overcome the scoring prowess of Wade and LeBron, but as long as they kept the game tight, a chance to pull a win was there.

Dwayne Wade took it upon himself to create distance in the third and had 11 points in the quarter, his last of the frame giving the Heat a 71-59 lead. Up until that time, the Raptors scoring had all been Bargnani and DeRozan, nobody else had it going – Barbosa and Bayless were making a mess and Calderon could not find his range. The surprise substitution which had an impact was Alexis Ajinca, the Frenchman had four points in the late third and had a couple inspired defensive possessions which trimmed the lead back to six. Barbosa then lost House for consecutive jumpers before benefiting from a three-point foul to send the Raptors down eight heading into the fourth.

Without LeBron to start the fourth, Chris Bosh thought he could win this game for the Heat – he failed. The Heat started 0-7, 4 of them missed Bosh jumpers. The Raptors were within five and facing another assault by Wade. There was no answer for him, the Raptors didn’t want to double and I don’t blame them, Wade and James combined for 12 points in a Heat fourth quarter stretch which was matched by Andrea Bargnani’s accuracy from deep, he had a massive 17 in the fourth, and the Raptors were within striking distance – down 5 with 1:49 left. They got the defensive stop they wanted but couldn’t keep Erick Dampier off the glass for a tip-in that sucked the life out of the ACC crowd as the lead went back up to 7. More Bargnani and DeRozan offensive magic cut it to 4 which is when the Raptors conceded another killer offensive rebound, this one to James on his own shot and it was a six point lead with 57 seconds left. Game over, iced off by Johnson missing another close-range shot.

The energy from the home team was there, they were competitive, fouled hard, and did their best. In the end, Wade had 28, Bosh had 25 and James had 23. No other Heat had more than 8, and that’s more than enough to beat this year’s Raptors. The Heat were always in control, right through Bargnani’s magnificent offensive game and the ACC crowd’s feckless jeers.

  • cesco

    This game could have gone down to the last bucket and perhaps won if EVERYONE had contributed to the best of their ability . Having 7 players contribute 33 points and one player contributing 38 points would indicate that poor offense by too many players was the cause of the loss .

    • Theswirsky

      This game could have gone down to the last bucket and perhaps won if EVERYONE had contributed to the best of their ability. Having your starting C contribute 4 rebounds in 40 minutes would indicate poor defense by a specific player was the cause of the loss.

      Shall we repeat that with defense to?

      • cesco

        There were 9 players in this game and seven of them had sub par offensive games . Of course , for the haters Andrea was at fault for the loss . What is new .

        • Theswirsky

          praising Bargnani’s offense, while ignore his non-existent defense and nearly non-existent rebound. What is new.

          • C.d.G.

            you must be ritarded. Or, maybe, you’ve just got an ideological idiosyncrasy for truth and reality. Like may others here.
            PS = that picture’s very funny, tough. Bosh-Catwoman!

            • Theswirsky

              definetely ritarded.

              I must be to think defense and rebounding matter

              • voy

                no one is saying it doesn’t matter. change the narrative much? Or maybe I can pull a swirsk and reply “I must be to think offense doesnt matter”

                • Nilanka15

                  You’re the biggest closet Bargnani fanboy on this site. At least cesco (et al) have the balls to admit it.

                • voy

                  OHHH, snap, son. Did you call me a name on the internet? OHHH, burn on me. A fanboy!?!?!?! OHHH, good one, son. You really got me.

                  Listen everyone, no one mess with Nilanka. He may call you a “fanboy”. Thats totally badass. How can you really recover from that? I dunno. Good one, champ. Way to contribute.

                • Nilanka15

                  Too much “conflict” for you to handle?

                • Theswirsky

                  funny how the fan boys aren’t mentioning it either huh? Yeah points!

          • EuroPussy

            Which Raps can defend?

  • Maleko

    “on this night this game is a blowout without him”

    Don’t agree at all. Layup after layup were huge issues, help defence non-existent makes a difference on both the shooting percentage Miami had that you mentioned and the points these guys were scoring. If we have a C that stops these walkup scoring and cleans the glass it makes a difference on the energy, and the score. Sure you lose some of the points and Bargnani had a beautiful stroke, and I was amazed some of the shots dropped as smoothly as they did, but he did use up a pile of shots that would go around to others.
    Still a loss? Probably. A blowout, I don’t think so.

    • Mavs_ovr_any1

      That’s what the heat do. They had something like 90 points in the paint against the Pacers

  • voy

    to me, and this is just my opinion, but it appears as though the folks who dont like bargs actually hope he has bad games to vindicate their dislike for the italian, or to spark some sort of anti-bargs rally at the acc in hopes of ousting BC and Mubarak, I mean Bargniani.

    You can almost sense the two inch boners being pitched as they work themselves up in some sort of mindless, rabid, ecstasy. “OMG, I cant believe when scrub1, from the other team, drove by the other 4 players on our team, bargs couldn’t rotate in time and swat him” or “25 shots? wow, what a loser. couldn’t he score 38 points with only 10 shots. Trade him, right now for Wil Perdue”.

    I’m not telling anyone to like bargs or to dislike him. However, the discussion on this site is much, much, much, better when we use the same standards when judging all players.

    • Theswirsky

      ‘it appears as though the folks who dont like bargs actually hope he has bad games’

      this couldnt be any further from the truth. I think any Raps fan wants to see Bargnani have monster games every day. But the simple fact is he needs to do more than just score. When he does score he can’t stand around and just give up points at the other end. Its like 4 on 5 for the Raps on D. Its 4 on 5 for the Raps after a shot goes up. It shouldn’t be acceptable… and to me its not.

      I agree the same standards should be used when juding all players…. and that includes defense and rebounding. Now if only the fan boys would live up to the same standards they hold others (the so called ‘haters’) to… that would be something.

    • Marc

      Agreed. No one would ever think about tearing Ed Davis or Amir Johnson apart for having a 5 pt 15 reb game. Their strength is rebounding. Barg’s strength is scoring. It’s up to the GM to put together a team of players whose strengths and weaknesses compliment each other, and it’s up to the coach to use those players most effectively.

      Nothing we say will convince him to box out harder or to rotate quicker. He is what he is.

      • voy



        perfectly said.

      • WhatWhat

        “Nothing we say will convince him to box out harder or to rotate quicker.”

        Dude…You honestly can’t see a serious, serious problem here with that?

        • Marc

          Perhaps you misheard me. Nothing “WE” say (we the fans) will convince him to box out or rotate. If the COACH says box out and rotate, he’d better damn well listen, and if he doesn’t, then bench his ass. And if he still doesn’t listen, then it’s up to the GM to trade him.

          The fact of the matter is that Bargnani is slow-footed with extremely poor reflexes. He is not Amir or Ed or even Reggie. He will NEVER be a great rebounder or help defender. The thing that pisses me off about him is his occasional poor effort games where he has checked out mentally from the get-go. That is inexcusable. Averaging 5 rebs a game IS excusable. More than that, it’s all we’ll ever get from him.

          I repeat, he is what he is

    • Nilanka15

      It’s fundamentally WRONG to use the same standards to judge all players. Am I gonna kill DeMar because he doesn’t average 9 assists? Do you hear anyone smashing Amir cuz he doesn’t hit enough 3’s? Does anyone rip Calderon because he didn’t block any shots? Gimmie a fuckin’ break. A centre is SUPPOSED to rebound and protect the paint…something Bargnani has never done….EVER!

      • voy

        somehow, nilanka, its not surprising you cant apply simple logic to a common sense statement. The same standards as in offense and defense. If want to pollute conversation with your usual “OMG Voy said D12 sucks because he is slower than Rose” then thats fine. No one exects anything more from you and I’d be a little disappointed if you didn’t.

        • Nilanka15

          To clarify to those reading this thread, you object when people complain about Bargnani’s lack of rebounding and help defense, and suggest all players should be judged using the same standards.

          Then when it’s pointed out that Bargnani is our ONLY starting centre, and thus the responsibility of rebounding and help defense falls on him first, you resort to implying that your pseudo-intellectual posts are too complex for my comprehension.

          Do you even know what “logic” means? Most fanboys don’t.

          • voy

            1) i dont object when people complain about bargs lack of rebounding and help D. i object when any rap drops 38 on above 50% shooting and the first thing, regarding the game, out of someone’s mouth is “he only grabbed 4 rebs” or “he only got 4 assists” or “his help d wasn’t that good”. Is that really what the game boiled down to?

            2) If you are gonna slam one player for not having a complete offense/defense game then I fail to see how you cant apply those same standards to the other raps as well, regardless of position. Amir grabbed 15 rebs? Awesome. How many points did he get? 7? Weak. Pretty ridiculous.

            3)Yes, Andrea is our starting centre. So what? Does that mean there is no room on this squad for another big man who can rebound and defend? Of course not. I would argue Andrea’s first responsibility is to score. If you’re still waiting for him to all of a sudden start grabbing 10 rebs a game then I can see how you’re incable of understanding anything other than internet name calling.

            • Nilanka15

              “I would argue Andrea’s first responsibility is to score.”

              Therein lies your problem. Like Colangelo, you’re attempting to fit a square peg through a round hole. A fundamental flaw when building a team.

              Perhaps my disgust should be less directed towards Bargnani, and more directed towards Colangelo, but when Bargnani refers to himself as “lazy”, it’s hard not to point the finger right at him.

              But go ahead and continue to hope we somehow, someway find a winning formula with Bargnani in the middle. But I’ll spoil the ending for you….it’s never gonna happen.

              • voy

                oh, nilanka. sweet, innocent nilanka.

                the future rise or fall of this franchise will go beyond whether andrea grabs 4 more rebounds a game.

                I know its easier to think the Raps will be a step closer to winning a championship if we trade Andrea for Martin Gortat. And I know its fun to laugh and fire up the computer, visit RR and say “hey guys, see that shot andrea missed? I told you he sucked, validate me validate me”. And I know its easier to post the same thing day, after day, after day, after mind-numbing facking day. But son, the truth is when the raps are ready to contend, half this current roster, if not more, will be gone. The truth is when the raps are ready to contend they’ll have a stud in the paint, better defenders on the perimeter and a wing who can break his man off the dribble and shoot it from deep. Does this preclude andrea from being on the team? I dont think it does. Does this mean Andrea will 100% be on the team when we are ready to contend? I dont think it does. Do you catch me drift, son?

                I like Andrea but I dont really care if AB is on the team or not, as long as we make strides towards contending. But right now, we are in year one of rebuilding. Year one. So I really dont get why you are getting so bent out of shape andrea grabbed 4 boards on a night he dropped 38. Would we be any closer to winning a championship if he grabbed 15 boards last night? He droped 38 points, thats it, dude. No one is gonna try and convince you he’s a franchise player. Or no one is gonna try and convince you he’s untouchable. Relax a little. Next time Amir grabs 15 boards and goes 3-7 I’m fully expecting to see a post from you on why amir didn’t play a good game.

                • Nilanka15

                  I’m not focusing on last night. I don’t care about the 38 points. It was one game. Kyle Lowry scored 36 points in a losing effort last night. Should we give them both gold medals? My complaints describe Bargnani’s flaws which have plagued him since 2006, and seem to get worse with each passing day. Catch my drift, “son”???

                  You’re not going to hear me complain about a 3-7 shooting night from Amir because he does what a PF is supposed to do (i.e. rebound, play defense, and challenge shots). Any scoring we get from Amir is gravy. Regardless, one can easily look past a poor shooting night from Amir, as long as he continues to average 58% from the field.

                  Unlike you, I judge players based on what their position’s job description entails. PGs should run the offense. Wings should score. Bigs should rebound. And EVERYONE should play defense.

                  I’m going into this offseason with the hope that Colangelo makes enough improvements that we might (and I emphasize “might”) be able to compete for the 7th or 8th seed in 2011-12, without breaking the bank on a washed-up free agent, and with our young core leading the charge. My hope for the 2012-13 season is to be in position to compete for the 6th or 5th seed, and potentially home court advantage in 2014. Bargnani’s on the books until 2015…why on earth would I want his laziness plaguing our young core just as they’re preparing to take their collective step forward within the NBA ranks?

                  You may not think Bargnani’s a franchise player, but there are a lot of delusional fans who think otherwise. But for someone who attempts to come across as indifferent towards Bargnani’s plight, you feel the need to defend him whenever an opportunity arises. Stop kidding yourself.

                • mountio

                  Weve been through this argument a million times, but one of the fatal flaws (there are a few) of your anti bargs argument is the assertion that PGs should run the offense, wings should score and bigs should rebound and those duties are absolute. That is such a gross over generalization that its ridiculus. Yes, you need rebounding from your bigs in aggregate. But to suggest that the winning formula is too bigs that focus on boards and cant really score is wrong. One of those bigs (at least) needs to be able to score the ball. Could Amir’s scoring be enough? Im not sure. And you need scoring from your team for sure – but that could come from a big (say a big and a wing or a big and a PG), but the other guys need to fill in the other holes. Would it kill us to have a decent rebounding SF? How about someone who can shoot threes at the wing? There is no doubt that the current raps as constituted dont work and wont work without change. I would argue that we have some decent pieces and should build around them.
                  The practical question isnt whether you would prefer to have 5 great defenders, two bigs that rebound, and score, wings that score and play D and a PG to run the show. Of course you would. The practical question is given the reality of what is available, what flaws are you willing to live with? What set of flawed players can be put together and still put together a winning team. Given that every player on the raps is flawed, I would stick with the one guy that has a legit skill (bargs scoring), then probably DD who seems to be able to score and should have the ability to play some D (although he hasnt shown it yet). From there, ed and amir are good pieces. Need a 3 that can shoot threes and need an overall upgrade on D (at PG and SF).
                  Now, if somehow we can bring in eltie scorers at two positions (say PG and SF or SG), ill be the first guy to argue to ship AB out of town if we arent winning. But, lets see if we can find those guys first, cause they are few and far between ..

    • WhatWhat

      “but it appears as though the folks who dont like bargs actually hope he has bad games to vindicate their dislike for the italian, or to spark some sort of anti-bargs rally at the acc in hopes of ousting BC and Mubarak, I mean Bargniani.”

      Stop it. Nobody hopes that he has a bad game, nobody. And he not that he didn’t block a driving player’s shot, it’s that he didn’t ALTER it, or literally in most cases, wasn’t anywhere near him. He IS a center, that IS his responsibility, and moving him to the 4 won’t fix things either.

      Our starting CENTRE grabbed 1(ONE!) boards in his first 30 minutes of play, you honestly can’t call him out on that? I mean the guy was actually hedging hard on picks in the first 5 minutes of the game, it’s abundantly clear that he’s being lazy on the defensive end which is what makes him so frustrating. He is better than this.

      He is an historically bad rebounder and terrible help defender, and he’s REGRESSED in both areas, while improving nothing else. He was a great man-on-man defender last year, but that’s completely gone. Last year’s version of Bargs could be doing what he is on offense. About 7 boards per game is what I am personally looking for. At 7 boards, we can actually go “well we just need a good rebounding SF. He’s a passable defensive rebounder and his style of play doesn’t have get many offensive boards.” At 5.5 boards we will be in poor in the vast majority of situations. That’s a rather large jump (like 22%) from his 5.5 boards per game to 7.

      Bargs had a good game (and obviously isn’t the reason why we lost), he carried that team on his back at times, but he is still remarkably one-dimensional and has shown no signs of being anything else. He HAS to improve in those areas. Getting other players to cover up (Not cover up, complement, huge difference) isn’t enough…or worth it.

      And the importance of rebounding is severely overlooked.


      If Bargs (or anyone else, but I’m pointing at the historically bad rebounder because…you know, he’s historically bad…) grabbed three more defensive rebounds, that’s 3 more possessions for the Raps and 3 less shots for the Heat. For us, we gain an extra 3.03 points, while the Heat score 3.288 less points. 6.318 points in those 3 possessions. The Heat got 9 more defensive boards than we did, and it is also the differential for the game. And low and behold! We lost by 8. You wanna go “there”, we lose by 5.9 points per game…

      • Guest

        Bargs is a terrible rebounder and a worse help defender BUT the stats don’t always tell the story. For example, they don’t tell you about a wasted possession when Ed Davis grabbed a board away from a teammate and stepped out of bounds in the process. Yes, the stats logged a TO, but that TO was much worse than having a ball slapped out of your hands when you catch a pass in the post.

        • WhatWhat

          Just using the stats as an example. But there were a lot of back-breaking miscues that game.

        • Theswirsky

          ‘BUT the stats don’t always tell the story. For example, they don’t tell you about a wasted possession when Ed Davis grabbed a board away from a teammate and stepped out of bounds in the process’

          uhh yeah they do… its called a turnover. Doesn’t really matter how you turnover the ball does it…. its still a turnover.

          • Rapthoseleafs

            I don’t think they tell the story.

            When it comes to turnovers, too often they become just a stat – with less relevance. The Ed Davis turnover was Ed jumping in front of his own player to snag a rebound. That zeal carried him too far. Rookie mistake.

            When they look back at this game, Ed’s turnover will not explain itself. It will only be a number. Not a “wasted possesion”, or lost opportunity. Just a simple stat.

            What’s been difficult with the Raptors this season – through all the growing pains – is the propensity of errors, that experienced (and older) players don’t make as many. To a young team like Toronto, development can be a painful way to progression.

            • Theswirsky

              I don’t get it.

              How is it any worse than someone who just missed a rebound and it went out of bounds of them? The result would be identical no?

              How is it different than a pg who passed the ball to high?

              How is it different than a guy who allowed himself to be trapped in a corner?

              “When they look back at this game, Ed’s turnover will not explain itself. It will only be a number. Not a “wasted possesion”, or lost opportunity. Just a simple stat”

              yeah well thats with everything else that happened in this game to. So unless you plan on repeating that game over and over again on your PvR… I think you and everyone else will get over it.

              God damn Barg fan boys… way to distract again. Some how this went from Bargnani as a terrible rebounder to whether Ed Davis turnover on a rebound is worse than a normal turnover. Nice work you guys got me.

      • voy

        no argument. andrea is a weak rebounder. is anyone saying anything other? If you’re waiting for andrea to do the things tradition centres do then I’m afraid you’ll have a long wait.

        If you would rather move him in hopes of finding this type of player then I can respect your opinion. I have no problem with this type of argument. However, no I’m not gonna call out a starting centre for grabing 4 boards when he’s dropping 38 on efficient shooting as long as our pf are doing a decent job on the boards….just as i wouldn’t call out a weak offensive performance from our power forwards if the offense was coming from somewhere else and our 4’s were doing the dirty work.

        Lastly, bargs grabbing 3 more boards does not translate into the Raps getting 3 more possessions.

        • EdDames

          To say that I can’t expect him to do things that traditional centers can blows my mind; I’m expecting him to do things that traditional NBA players should do, regardless of position. Furthermore, he has the physical ability to make it happen – it’s mystifying.

          And that’s why a lot of people are pissed. Bargnani can be really good offensively but is giving you so little in other phases of the game. When the face of the franchise is a glaringly incomplete player (especially one whose deficiencies are traditionally strengths for his position), people are gonna be hollering. It’s also an 82 game seasons, which means you’re going to be hearing it A LOT.

          A rebound does mean that you gained possession or gained an extra possession, that’s exactly what it does.

          • voy

            unless I am missing something, for you to say bargs grabbing 3 more rebounds will equal into 3 more possessions for the raps is assuming the 3 rebs he’s not getting now are not being grabbed by his teammates either.

            Hey, I’d love for ‘dre to grab more boards but to say each rebs he is not getting is translating into an extra possession for the other team is not accurate.

            • EdDames

              Unfortunately, there is no way to know exactly how many would be additional possessions above and beyond the amount that were collected. We’ll never know. But the “someone else probably got it” justification is unacceptable. I’ve already read about how Bosh took all of his rebounds, and then Reggie took them, and now Ed and Amir are taking them too. I’m basically seeing those same posts again.

              Really? REALLY?

              • voy

                its not a justification. its just a fact to refute your theory that each extra rebound bargs get is an extra possession for the raps. simple.

                • Theswirsky

                  its actually not a “fact” if you can’t prove another teammate grabbed the rebound.

                  its just an assumption. It is a fact though that if player X grabs a rebound it IS one more possession for his team.

                • voy

                  swirsk, ahhhh… yeah it is a fact. if you wanna argue that each of those theoretical 3 rebounds AB doesn’t get, in each and every game, falls into the oppositions hands then good luck with that.

                  thanks for playing.

                • Theswirsky

                  yeah I never argued that.

                  Way to read.

            • EdDames

              And I’m not saying that you’re resorting to that argument but I pray to god that’s not the mentality that Andrea has when he’s out there on the floor. If anything, I give him a bit more credit than some because I believe he has the ability.

            • Theswirsky

              ‘but to say each rebs he is not getting is translating into an extra possession for the other team is not accurate.’

              no but its not a gained possession either.

              What it does mean is there is a greater chance the opposition will get another possession.

      • EdDames

        This is a good, fair post but it will fall on deaf ears.

      • AnthonyF

        Did you watch the game? I wae complaining about Barg’s rebounds, but did you log who he matched up against? It wasn’t Dampier (10 rebs) or Lebron (13 rebs)…. He protected the area he was in. Was his help defense bad? Yep, guilty as charged. The rebounding though yesterday was a moot point as no one he was on abused him or outmuscled him for a board. In actuality Ed Davis and Amir swooped in took a few from him. Maybe he needs to battle Davis for a rebound and step out of bounds (a momentum killer). Also boxed out well.

        As a perimeter player he also draws coverage to him, opening the middle and opportunities for offensive boards. How many easy baskets does Amir get off Calderon feeds, because the middle is open because Bargnani is dragging players away from the basket?

        Btw I can complain about DD still having only 2 3-pointers this year from the 2 position. Without shooters outside Bargnani, teams can pack the middle.

        Other nights there is a point when people slam his rebounding…. Yesterday was not one of those days.

        • Nilanka15

          Zero rebounds until the 6 minute mark of the 3rd quarter. You don’t see anything worth criticizing our starting centre there? You can’t be serious.

          • AnthonyF

            How many rebounds went to the guy he was guarding? How many rebounds went to a teammate because he did a proper job boxing out? I will readily admit and have there are games where he was beaten on the post and rebounded over and there seemed a lack of effort. Yesterday was not one of them. Ilgauskus 0 rebounds, Anthony 4 and Jones 0, and 1 offensive board, those were the players Bargnani was covering. Watch the game and then report back….

            • Nilanka15

              Yes Sir! Right away Sir!

              Ilgauskas is 150 years old, and at this stage of his career, is just as allergic to the paint as Bargnani. Anthony played a whopping 8 minutes, and still manged 4 boards. Imagine if he had played 30 minutes! Jones played 7 minutes.

              Your argument is as weak as Bargnani’s rotations. Bargnani didn’t stop anyone from rebounding.

              Zero rebounds until the 6 minute mark of the 3rd. That’s even hard to do intentionally.

    • Toshmon

      “Trade him, right now for Wil Perdue”

      classic! that made my day

  • Soso

    SCREW you douchebads….. GO BOSH!!

  • Aaron

    Dampier sets the best moving screens in the NBA.
    Raptors defense is bad with or without Andrea. So blaming a team problem on one player is stupid and riiiitarded. The whole team needs to go to defensive school. I know you guys think that trading Andrea is the simple answer but that is the most simplictic thinking that I might think that your 4 years old.

    • Nilanka15

      No one is suggesting that trading Barney is all it takes to improve this team. While the other players stink on defense as well, they’re still young and inexperienced. In other words, there is still hope that guys like Davis, DeRozan, Bayless, Amir, can improve their defense. There’s no such hope with Bargnani.

      If the ultimate goal is to one day compete deep in the playoffs, you need a strong defensive unit. So why hold onto the one player who has proven he will NEVER be a good defensive player???

  • Statement

    I’ve not been a fans of Bargs game since his second year and I had more than my share of “hater” moments on this forum,

    But he played very well offensively last night. Can’t pin this on him.

    • cesco

      Thanks Statement , you are officially removed from the hater list and join the likes of Arse in becoming a ‘fair’ critic . We need more of this type of critics to avoid this blog becoming irrelevant .

      • Nilanka15

        Cesco, when will you graduate to ‘fair critic’ status?

        • cesco

          When all the haters become ‘fair’ critics , the pigs will fly . I am fair toward all the other players in the sense that I do not spend time criticizing them INDIVIDUALLY for their faults . To-day , I simply tried to make the point that a little more offense from everyone other than Andrea or DD would have helped and that is a fair criticism toward those players about this game .

      • sleepz

        It interests me when people use the word ‘hater’.

        To call someone that without being a hypocrite you would have to always be non-critical or non-judgemental of everything else. Does this summarize your attitude and being and do you live according to these rules? You can’t call others haters for their critiques, then criticize other players on the team because that would inevitably make you a ‘hater’ of those other players wouldn’t it? Maybe it doesn’t matter to you as long as it’s not Andrea that is being spoken about.

        • Raptoronto

          The term “hater” is just as annoying as the term “fan-boy”…we are all a little bit of both or we would not be on here so every time I hear either it brings me back to the schoolyard. We are all fans of the Raptors and no one on this team is above criticism but at the end of the day, of the two extremes, I appreciate the “fanboy” perspective over the “haters”.

          If someone chooses to appreciate an individual for his skills and accepts his flaws, so be it, more bums in seats is good for the franchise. The negative spin that management will not be proactive if fans support a flawed team or player is non-sense, they see what we see far before we see it but their job is to maximize/develop assets and hide weaknesses to increase the perceived value of an asset to flip them for better assets. Andrea is frustrating, no doubt, but his value is still on an up-swing and imo has not hit its peak just yet. You can argue against this but what was your opinion of his game 12 months ago versus today? Do you think he is more valuable as a player now or then? If you can’t see the increased confidence and improvement in a varied offensive game then you need to look back…he is a better player, it’s just his flaws are more exposed now that he’s a focal point on both ends of the floor.

          I’m all for dealing him when the time is right (I’m a defence first guy too) but dealing him now makes no sense. Bargnani could very well have hit a plateau but I think he is still growing as player and teammate…he will play at this level or higher for a good 3 to 5 years or more so I’d rather wait to see what we got and deal him at his definite peak. If he truly becomes a well rounded player them maybe we keep him. For now we have an asset slowly building (along with other young assets) and railing against him obsessively at this point based on where the team is at is counterproductive and damages his perceived value. The win-loss column at this point has no bearing on the future success of the franchise other than draft position. Let these guys develop, we’ll fill some holes in the summer and then we can re-evaluate. If ED and AJ develop more of an offensive game Bargs becomes more expendable. If Bargs gets more comfortable and aggressive on D those two also improve than maybe we are set in the back-court and can focus all our energy on the back court which requires a serious upgrade. Two cents from a pseudo-fan-boy.

          • Raptoronto

            *focus all our energy on the “front-court” which requires a serious upgrade.

          • Nilanka15

            Bargs BYC status doesn’t expire until this summer anyways. It’s pretty much a certainty he won’t get traded before then.

            • Raptoronto

              I certina he won’t either but our trade exception could eliminate the BYC issue.

    • Sek99

      Ya bargs had a good game. He didn’t lose this game for us (that was more Calderon with two stupid jumpshots in the fourth). He played well on one end and awful on the other end. What else is new? He’s not changing, even in big games. He’s not a good player. . . everyone has to accept that. Hes at best Jamal Crawford in a 7 foot frame. Crawfords been in one playoff series. An inconsistent scorer who doesn’t play defense. JR Smith drops 40 sometimes to. Don’t think people are willing to try and build a franchise around him. That’s the problem. Centre is the most important defensive position on the team, as he has to protect the rim and box out. Bargs doesn’t do either, and despite monster games which I will agree made this a close game, its not worth it in the long run. Unless he scores 30 a night, he’s not worth the lack of D.

      • Jonathan

        well said Sek

      • Statement


        I agree with you that Bargs is not a good player overall and for him not to kill us, he has to be hyper-efficient offensively which he was last night. Hence my praise. Will he be hyper-efficient on offense consistently…no he won’t.

        IMHO Bargs is a bench player on a good team, but a starter on our craptacular team.

    • slaw

      Agree. The pick and roll coverage was a problem with all the bigs and all the smalls, not just Bargs. He kept them in the game offensively with those threes in the 4th. They got nothing from the bench, Amir missed a tonne of easy shots, and Jose’s shot got lost somewhere over Topeka….

  • sleepz

    Usually look forward to your insights even if I don’t always agree with them. Thought your total assesments of Bosh were harsh.

    “If you recall, Bosh was often torn to shreds by pretty much every power forward ranging from Zach Randolph to Boris Diaw” Give me a break he wasn’t going to make any all defensive teams but he wasn’t a sieve.

    I agree he wasn’t as good or half as exciting as Carter was when he was wearing a Raps jersey but if your judgements are based on how far the player took the team, Carter won 1 playoff series, Bosh didn’t. Thats not a grand canyon sized gap in effect on the team.

    • Guest

      he was a sieve yesterday…

      • sleepz

        Give Barganani some credit though. He hit his jumper so he had to be played tighter and took it to the basket at times because of it. Was it bad defence by Bosh or good offence by Bargnani?

        I thought much of it was good offence. Watch Bosh defend other 4’s any other night and I think that label earned as a Rap has officially been removed now as it doesn’t apply anymore.

        • Theswirsky

          ‘Watch Bosh defend other 4’s any other night and I think that label earned as a Rap has officially been removed now as it doesn’t apply anymore.’

          I’d say the exact opposite. His time in Miami has proven he is and was a weak defender.

          • Smushmush

            If he is a weak defender at the crucial position as a big man, how are the Miami Heat Top 3 in defense in the league? Food for thought. Bosh is a soft player that I can take but he is an above average defensive player(when your Olympic teammates rave about your defense at the Olympics and Pat Riley offers you an $100m contract to a winning organization, you can’t be a bad defender imo).

          • sleepz

            How has it proven this? Miami is one of the best defensive teams in the league and he plays the most minutes of any big man on the team. He rotates, hedges on p&r scenarios and does everything the coach expects of him defensively as per Spolestras words.

            What has his time in Miami proven to you? The team defensive stats and feedback from the coaching staff indicate he’s a far better defender than you are giving him credit for.

  • KJ-B

    Hmmm… My take from this game: #7 not going MIA vs the Heat like he’s done for a good part of 2K11, will actually be great for regaining his lost trade value!

    • Jonathan

      :) agreed

  • Anony

    I’ve been a frequent Bargnani hater around these parts, hell, I usually scream at the TV watching him play defence….But it’s hard to knock the 38 points, as a hater I let the defence slide a bit, the dude made some clutch shots, cut him some slack..

    • AnthonyF

      Once a hater, always a hater….. Can’t change stripes…. Right swirsky/Tim_w et al……

      • Theswirsky

        hey not my fault Bargnani won’t try to rebound or defend.

      • Nilanka15

        Since Bargnani refers to himself as “lazy” (an adjective a lot of “haters” use), does that make Bargnani a hater too?

  • pran

    what i find funny is you pussy’s have a field day, when bargnani has a good game, where the hell were you the last month?

    • Pizzaman1

      I was traveling on business while you were sucking your friends dick you freaking coward!

      • Statement

        obviously you aren’t the real pizzaman, or maybe you are. Dumb comment man

        I really thought, given Rapthoseleafs comments that the Bargs fans were alright, but you are clearly a dumbass. You are also going on the John_P ignore front. Would the real pizzaman please stand up. You make me long for Multipaul and Cesco

      • Nilanka15

        Your business trip was apparently to Neptune, where you couldn’t have possibly found a wi-fi connection. Your silence had nothing to do with Bargnani’s god-awful play of late, right? [rolling eyes].

    • Statement

      Dude, can’t call them pussys either. That’s rough

  • Fletchmer

    Andrea Bargnani scored 38 points in the Raptors’ loss to the Heat. Only one other center in the past 15 years scored at least that many points in a game versus Miami. That was Shaquille O’Neal, who tallied 40 points for the Lakers in a victory at Miami in April 2002.

    you would never know by this board anything went well last night. Personally this board has outlived it’s usefulness for me same shit different day. No way in hell any of you can really call yourself raptor fans more like a bunch of wana-bees who think they are smart but have an IQ lower than my dog.

    • Pizzaman1

      Fletchmer this is the best post yet. I used to post fairly regular on this site, then went on an extended business trip then returned and read some of the crap on this site and pretty much decided to stop sinking as low as the repeat losers on this site like Nilanka, Timmy the master balled who never really says anything that does not lead to why Bargs stinks, gutless racist Pran who uses the word wop like a name and this site does nothing to stop it nor does the little whiney prick have the guts to actually tell anyone who he is so someone like me can stick his head up his own ass, and the rest of the complete morons on this site who cannot wait to post how Andrea only had 4 boards, or played poor help defense even though the guys that killed us were not his men, but the man of another Raptor player who is just as bad defensively but never get called out because Bargs is an easy target for so called experts because the other guys are not also getting the prize Bargs gets so why knock them down. The others are all learning because they’re young and Bargs is an old man at 25. Some of the idiots here have always said Bosh is a great defender yet Bargs completely destroyed him and anyone else who tried to cover him. The same guys make excuses like he cannot cover everyone but expect Bargs to cover for everyone. Very little mention of just how bad almost everyone else’ defense was last night, or how bad everyone but Bargs and DeRozan were on offense (actually most were completely brutal but kept shooting versus go to Bargs or DD)
      You would think that after a great game like last night fans would be happy with the close exciting game against a top team, and look at two big reasons we lost:
      NBA referees are morons and gave the Heat almost 40 free throws to the Raptors 22, and 17 to 2 in the fourth quarter alone, and reason two is that outsid Bargs and DD everyone else but Ajinca and Davis were complete shite yet kept on looking for their own shot when nothing was dropping and they should have gone to hot hands down the stretch.
      I used to love this site as a forum for fans but it’s turned into let’s get rid of Bargnani site, even though everyone else on the team has as many or more weaknesses as him. Morons fail to point out that the team stinks and you cannot pin that on one guy. Guys willing to say Bayless is a stud, yet get rid of Bargs for Gortat.
      In sports like in business and in life people have and do spend far too much time working on the weaknesses that can marginally improve rather than playing to their strengths and building their weaknesses up with others strengths. It is a team sport and business works the same.
      This site has been taken over by morons and I now know why Steven Brotherston left and took his classy comments with him!

      • Nilanka15

        Bargnani’s garbage.

  • Shew

    Without being labeled a Barg’s lover or hater I wanted to get some unbiased opinions. As I looked over the boxscore I couldn’t help but notice that the Heats center hadn’t fared very well, so then compared all centers that played yesterday and was fairly surprised to find that Barg was the best scorer. Even more surprised though was the fact none of the centers had more than 10 rebounds..actually most had Barg’s average.
    How long do you have to be a fan of something before you lose all objectivity?
    Bargnani is not what a good rebounder…check. Bargnani is a decent scorer…check. Bargnani is 7 foot tall so we all think he should be able to rebound better…check. Bargnani can spread the floor due his ability to score from all positions…check. etc etc..
    My question is how good (or bad) would Miami be if they had Barg as a center? No need for him to rebound much as the rest of the team more than make up for it. I would like to see Bargnani go just to see if he would fade into the background now that he wasn’t “special” or if without the pressure of carrying the team he would just score at will.

    ..and just to emphasize again, hardcore barg haters or lovers keep your opinions. There are plenty of kid forums out there for you to vent and argue while you try to come up with original insults.

    • pran

      thanks for getting back on topic,

      would you want bargs taking shots when you have bosh,lebron, and wade available? No, Can bargs score when he has fewer shot attempts? to put it into perspective ilgauskas and dampier had a total of 7 fg attempts, bargnani alone had 26.

      dampier and ilgauskas were a compine 6-7, bargnani was 15-26, meaning bargnani is a volume shooter, other centres are more efficient. (but that is because they aren’t the first scoring option, like bargnani is, i guarantee any other centre that scores 40 will have taken less shot attempts and have a better field goal percentage)

      bargnani is also bad at getting to the line, meaning no free points, almost all his scoring is done through shots, and shots in general are of lower percentage. he might learn to get to the line eventually, but right now he has no clue.

      That is just looking at it offensively, the defensive argument many people above me and for the past year have stated over and over again. and while rebounding is an issue, bargs does not clog the lane and alter shots like all other centers do.

      In conclusion, no bargnani would make miami a worse team if he were to take a starting role because he would have less shots and score less points,or take more shots resulting in misses that would have been otherwise been points if taken by the more efficient lebron/wade/bosh and would continue to be a liability on the defensive end. and there is no need for him to spread the floor, lebron and wade do a good enough job of that already.

      P.S. Ilgauskas is also a liablity on defense, which is why they fare much better with dampier on the floor who plays better defense.

      • cesco

        Stop talking thru your ass , Andrea is #5 among centers in free throws made and #1 in FT % . The opposition does not mind fouling a center like Dwight as he has a very poor FT% but with Andrea high FT % , it is not worth it . He is still #5 in FT made among centers so like I said , stop talking thru your ASS .

    • pran

      as of right now bargnani can be succesful on various contending teams if he were to come off the bench in a diminished roll.

  • Statement

    Pizzaman, you are an idiot.

    Not because you like Bargs, it’s just that you are an idiot.

    • pran

      ignore him, the troll wants a reaction

      • Statement


        You are just as rough man. Can’t hate on the “fanboys” if you are going to be as jerky as pizzman is.

        • pran

          oh i’d love to not be a jerk, just respectfully discuss issues with solid facts, I’ll stop, but do not expect the fanboys, or the one fan boy using several names to.

  • Jonathan

    This is what i comes down to,

    Can the Raps go far in the play-offs with bargs being the #1, or #2 scoring option and his huge liability on defense and rebounding.

    Answer: No

    • Nilanka15

      Exactly. Short & sweet, yet sums it up perfectly.