Quiet summer, ain’t it? Picture day’s about a month and a half away, and there’s not much in the air in terms of Raptors news. There might be idle talk and speculation of how good someone might turn out to be, with the conversation mainly focusing on Jonas Valanciunas, probably the most anticipated player coming in. Judging on the Olympic performance there’s clearly work to be done on that front, and you might even find a bet or two where Terrence Ross would be picked to have a bigger impact than the big Lithuanian.

The basketball itch hasn’t been too severe this summer, maybe because the off-season was quite busy and the season did end later than usual. A training camp on the horizon does breed excitement, even though it’s not in the sense of anticipating a winning team. It’s more of a curiosity at this point, to see how these different components – Lowry, Valanciunas, and Ross – fit into the existing setup. Everyone has a role and a metric or two which they will be measured in:

– Ross – three point shooting
– Lowry – steals, assists, FTAs
– Valanciunas – rebounds, FG%

Something like that. If things click, the Raptors might find themselves as being a true “up and coming” team for the first time since 2007. If they stay more or less the same in terms of wins, it’ll be chalked up to progress and the positive would be experienced gained, with verdicts on DeRozan and Bargnani likely to follow. If things go south, the portrait of the Raptors as a perennial loser will continue to be painted and a couple heads will roll, maybe something like ushering DeRozan and Bargnani out, and buying stock in Valanciunas and Ross – the age old transition from mediocrity to likely more mediocrity.

Let’s stay positive though, and hope that the blend of youth and experience (mostly youth) can thrive under Casey and that the coach’s message stays fresh. The Atlantic is sure to be a struggle with New York, New Jersey, Boston, and Philadelphia all currently stronger than the Raptors. Throw in Chicago and Indiana from the Central, and Miami and Atlanta from the Southeast, and the playoff spots dry up quickly. I’ll settle for a legitimate battle for eighth spot next season, even if we don’t get it. I do mean legitimate though, not 12 games out like last season, or 15 the year before.

To draw a comparison, the Raptors need to make the same run Indiana made in 2010-11, where on the backs of a point guard (Lowry/Collison), a big (Valanciunas/Hibbert), and a wing (DeRozan/Granger), they announced themselves by grabbing the final playoff spot. What followed was a prompt first round exit, but the signal of intent was made and look at the progression the following year. It’s getting that foot in the door that’s essential for the Raptors this season. If they get the eight spot, it’ll mean something and we’re not talking instant gratification, they’ll be planting a seed which they shall reap in years to come.

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  • cesco

    A healthy Andrea will pretty well guarantee that the team will be playing near the .500 mark and thus be in the playoffs picture . Lowry contribution could secure the .500+ mark . Anything else is a bonus but making the playoffs really hinges on these two players being healthy and playing the majority of the games .

    • Nilanka15

      Another concern is how quickly Casey can come up with a set rotation.  With 6 new faces, it might take a while for chemistry to develop, and for the coaching staff to determine who plays well with who, and in what situations.

      I would hate for the season to be 40 games old, and have Casey still experimenting with his lineups.  The faster everyone knows their role (from starters to the 15th man), the better.

      • CalgaryRapsFan

        I could see DC going with a set 11-man rotation, that looks something like this, barring additional roster moves.

        STARTERS: Valanciunas, Bargnani, Fields, DeRozan, Lowry

        2nd UNIT: Amir, Davis, Kleiza, Ross, Calderon

        11th MAN: Gray – will get time with both the starters (when JV is overmatched and/or in foul trouble) and with the 2nd unit (when there’s a traditional big C to matchup against)

        BENCH: Acy, Anderson, Lucas

        I will personally be shocked if Calderon and Amir/Davis all last beyond the trade deadline.  There simply aren’t the minutes available to properly play/develop all the young players.

        Efficient asset management would say to trade Calderon while he’s still an attractive trade chip (ie: veteran pass-first PG on an expiring contract), then possibly look to re-sign him to a much cheaper contract next offseason, to be Lowry’s own veteran backup PG for the next 2-3 seasons.

    • Jamshid

      Speaking of financial flexibility of Raptors going forward, hoopsworld has updated its numbers and it seems like there 16 teams in the league which have a very similar flexibility at the end of this year +/- 5 million of where we are !!! 

    • Destro

      So then youd be saying AB is going to be an all star this season correct ? Wager ?

      • p00ka

        You never cease to amaze with how you can translate English into some other form of English that states something else entirely, yet I suppose you’ll say this is “obvious” too. Since most of us who have grown past the puberty stage no longer think we know it all, including what everybody “obviously” thinks but don’t say, please let us know what meds do this for you? Are they legal, and where can we get them?

        • Destro

          is he or not you internet geek ? i could careless about ur pointless drivel

        • player

          I knew it, you and Rush L. have something in common Pooka47401 go easy on the drugs

          • p00ka

            Always good to see a child practicing her ABCs on me.

            • player

              pookie go take your oxycon and stfu dummy

      • cesco

        I think that if you gave a choice to Andrea between making the playoffs or being an all star , he will want to make the playoffs . That said , he will be playing like an all star , how his opposition in the conference will be doing will  determine who is voted in or named by the coaches as the alternate.

        • sleepz

          Last year the team (Casey included) trumpeted about how Andrea was “playing like an all-star”. He wasn’t an all-star last year (wasn’t close to being one, truth be told) and no matter how much talk or speculation, until he goes and represents on the court he will continue to not be one.

          I do admire your loyalty to him. Andrea can do no wrong in cesco and bc’s eyes.

          • Destro

            I kinda saw a new excuse emerge a lil bit in his reply tho…almost hinted that if the coaches dont pick him its not so much because of HIM but the coaches dont know who to pick or play politics lolol……I could see that being the next excuse in tow…

          • player

            a true fanboy Cesco is

        • Destro

          Im sure he would rather make the playoffs but that isnt the question…i dont think that goal is attainable this year either…So you mean to tell me IF IF IF the coaches decide to select him he might BE one now hmmmm…..i see i see….

        • player

          Ces if you were to put that same question to any NBA player what do you think their ans would be 

  • Theswirsky

    The Raps had 2 options this offseason.  Continue the course (rebuild through the draft) or go all-in and chase the playoffs.  Colangelo choose the latter.

    He mortgaged part the future (a lottery pick and cap flexibility) so this team could make a run at the playoffs.  It should be do or die.  Playoffs or bust.  Nothing in between.

    Making the playoffs earns him his team option and another crack at taking a step to respectability- and this should be a very real opportunity.  The Atlantic may be tougher, but the east as a whole will likely be weaker.

    Not making the playoffs buys him and his staff a one way ticket to any of the 29 other locations that would have them or the golf course of his choosing. 

    As much as people like to talk ‘culture’ around this organization, the culture that has seemed to exist is one of ever moving goal posts.  This applies to players, coaches and executives.  This team, its fans and the organization as a whole should finally set a bar and stick to it.  After all this is not some rookie coming into to clean up someone elses mess.  This is an experienced GM who name is stamped on every single aspect of the team. 

    No more excuses.  Not injuries, not the refs, not the schedule, not how this or that game would have changed things.  None.

    • p00ka

      Did BC ever say that THE COURSE was strictly to “rebuild through the draft”, or is that just your theory of how it should be done? Just to be clear. Are you saying BC isn’t staying his course, or not staying your course?

      As it is, there’s an awful lot of rebuilding through the draft this year. We have 3 rookies, including 2 lottery picks coming to camp. The only other moves he made was getting a quality 26 year old PG, at a very good price, that perfectly fits the coaching style, and upgrading the SF spot with 24 year old Fields, another guy that fits the system.

      You consider this an “all-in” move, “mortgaging the future”? How is that?
      1. You say cap flexibility is mortgaged. Tell us how there’s no cap flexibility in the future, because the rest of the world believes there is. Keep in mind, if the right move becomes available, he still has the amnesty, which is flexibility that he didn’t “mortgage”.
      2. The other side of the “mortgage the future” point is trading an unknown pick that could be a non-lottery pick 5-6 years from now, or could be a crap shoot low lottery pick some time in the next 5 years, for a 26 year old PG (isn’t there some future there?), that fits the system very well, and he can grow with the current youth movement. Knowing what a crap shoot the draft is, what is the likelihood that this “mortgaging the future” pick would be better for the Raps future than Lowry?

      This is “all-in” and “mortgaging the future”? lol, okay

      • Theswirsky

        The straw man never stops burning does it? 

        • p00ka

          lol, it figures. You can’t counter a rebuttal to your babble, so throw out a one line chant that you keep in your pocket, and run away.

          • Theswirsky

            There should be no need for me to ‘counter’ statements I never made.

            Never did I say there is NO flexibility

            I also said he mortgaged PART of the future.

            Let alone that the ‘all-in’ doesn’t even begin to touch the majority of what I posted or the point behind my post

            If you actually want someone to have a debate on an issue with you, you need to have the same debate they are.  Unfortunately that rarely fits into your randomly changing opinion fixation… hence the need for you to build straw men, distract from the issue, and generally be a troll.

            But as always p00ka it was a slice

            • p00ka

              Unless you think you’re above everybody else, you can’t assume that people interpret what you say exactly as you mean it, but childishly calling people names because they didn’t is,,,,, well, childish and cowardly distraction from the point.

              But, okay, how about clarifying your point so that people your talking to, as in posting on this site, can understand and properly counter, if so moved.

              What significant PART of the future are you referring to. Whether PART is part of your reasoning or not, I responded with reasonably detailed explanations of my point of view to say that there’s little or no significance to your PART points. care to respond to those, instead of “distracting from the issue” and name calling with “Unfortunately that rarely fits into your randomly changing opinion
              fixation… hence the need for you to build straw men, distract from the
              issue, and generally be a troll.”

              I notice you still don’t respond to a simple question toward who’s “course” you say isn’t being stayed.

              “Let alone that the ‘all-in’ doesn’t even begin to touch the majority of what I posted or the point behind my post”

              So, a person is a straw man troll if they counter only part of your post? That seems, imo, a rather pompous restriction for a public forum, but I apologize for any slights. Please clarify what “all-in” moves that he performed this summer that I’ve not addressed. Did I not cover all the moves, as far as significant acquisitions, that he did this summer? Perhaps I missed something and you can help me, and others your talking to, remember.

              As far as “point behind your post”, I addressed points you did make in your post, that perhaps you meant as support for your main point. Am I a bad boy for responding to only your supporting points? Sheeesh, ya gotta update us on the rules of this forum, because I’ve never encountered such restrictions anywhere else.

              • Destro

                I think a potential top 5 lottery pick for a PG who might bounce in 2 yrs is mortgaging a decent piece of whatever future you might think we have…esp if we dont make the playoffs in any of the next 3-4 years…those inflated contracts plus the ones we have look bad… 

                • Matt52

                  where is this potential top 5 lottery pick coming from?

                  Toronto’s own 2013 1st round pick to Houston (Top-3 Protected and 15-30 Protected in the 2013 Draft, top-2 protected and 15-30 protected in 2014, top-2 protected and 15-30 protected in 2015, top-1 Protected and 15-30 protected in 2016, top-1 protected and 15-30 Protected in 2017 and unprotected in the 2018 Draft. [Houston-Toronto, 7/11/2012]

                  Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed#ixzz25Gm44fyO

                  the above is protection on the pick. do you really see the Raps as a bottom five team? 10-14 seems realistic on the downside and 10-14 pick seems more than fair for Lowry IMO. time will tell but there seems to be too many factors against Lowry not resigning (Alvin, starting position, Casey’s non-sexual wet dream). things will really have to go bad for Lowry leaving to be a possibility.

            • lol you add PART now, thats just pathetic, you know what you mean

              • Theswirsky

                It was already there.  Simply read the post.

                • Brain Colangelo

                  He didn’t mortgage anything. The only bad contract was fields and that is more than balanced by lowry’s top 5 in the NBA non-rookie contracts.

          • player

            that reminds me of Pooka47401.” did joe biden cancel his speech” comment ,i’m telling you Pook is on the same DRUG as Rush L.

            • p00ka


              • player

                oxycon will make you do a lot of that

          • Destro

            Whats there to counter tho ? He isnt mortgaged a future cuz we dont have one depending on what you think of the pieces here…He definitely was singing that rebuilding tune and overpaying Fields and bringing in Lowry hes completely scrapped that notion to try to make the ‘offs this year and securely another contract (coincidence?) Hes definitely changed his course somewhat with these moves and even tho he wont say what he expects from this team this year because hes a coward…we all know its playoffs or bust…and to not make it next year would be the last nail in his coffin…nothing to counter…stating the obvious

            • p00ka

              The only “obvious” things are that you say he’s changing course from your vision of it, not his, so he hasn’t changed a thing in that regard, AND that as always, you think that what you believe (not necessarily actual knowledge) is the obvious gospel truth.

              • Destro

                Your off ramp rambles are boring breh…..So what HE says and my vision of what he says is now the issue….lolol…

                If he says he rebuilding then that means hes rebuilding and my vision of rebuilding is not trying to make the playoffs immediately…or is that just my vision of his plan or maybe its a generic vision of someones plan but not bc’s cuz his plan and vision arent the same as our vision of plans or rebuilds that we envision,feel me ???

    • mountio

      Agree wholeheartedly. The only slight nuance I might change is that if we are having what I think most would consider to be a good season (lets say + or – 500 record) – finishing 9th and letting our pick go to Houston might be a better thing than finishing 8th, losing to the heat and still owing the Rockets a lottery pick .. (although to some extent I guess that dpeends on whether we actually think our team is “good” and turned the corner .. in which case keepin the pick, as our picks in the next few yeras will be worse if we make the playoffs .. might not be so bad)

      • Theswirsky

        I do agree that finishing just outside the playoffs does have its benifits (ie. unloading the owed lottery pick).  But that shouldn’t change what the goal for this team was or is.  Which is the playoffs.

        • Destro

          I get what ur saying but i dont even wanna read about benefits of finishing 10th anymore…

    • Jamshid

      Nicely Said. 
      This is going to be BC’s seventh season with its third head coach. He is one of the highest paid GM in the league who has 100% support of the organization behind him.
      This is the season to show us what this team is all about. 

    • Destro

      Funny thing about it tho is were still not a playoff team,i think were still in that 9th -12th bubble….He chose to chase a playoff position but he didnt do enough or make the right moves to accomplish THAT goal either….thats why this season is going to be so etherous for him and this organization i believe….can you imagine if this team is floating at the 25 win mark in april……those back tunnel interviews with BC sweating on camera in HD stuttering about what went wrong and all the excuses will be must see tv….

  • Statement

    Chicago had a terrible offseason, as did Atlanta.  I think the Raps will be very much fighting for a playoff spot, especially given that Chicago and Atlanta are weaker and IMHO, Philadelphia went sideways in the offseason.

    • Lorenzo

      I don’t think Atlanta is even going to make the playoffs

      • Destro

        They dont need too enough other teams improved that it wouldnt matter as a Raps fan…

    • WhiteVegas

      Atlanta actually had a fantastic offseason. Not just cap wise, but even from an on court perspective, I expect them to be a 45+ win team. Keep in mind they played 90% of last season without their All-Star Center Al Horford.
      Marvin Williams was the 8th man and a huge disappointment. Replacing him with Devin Harris is an upgrade.
      Joe Johnson stalled the offense with his constant demand for iso situations. They added Lou Williams, Korver, Morrow, and Jenkins to pick up the slack. Most of whom are much more efficient scorers than Joe Johnson.
      You must not have really looked at Atlanta’s offseason if you think they did terrible.

      Not to mention the salary cap miracle Danny Ferry worked, going from being stuck under Joe Johnsons deal for the next 4 years to being one of the biggest players in FA next year.

      • p00ka

        “They added Lou Williams, Korver, Morrow, and Jenkins to pick up the
        slack. Most of whom are much more efficient scorers than Joe Johnson.”

        At the risk of receiving theswirsky wrath for not responding to every word of your post, how is ANY of them “much more efficient”, never mind “most’? Last year’s stats:
        Joe Johnson – .454 FG%, .388 3P% against starters
        Lou Williams – .421 FG% , .327 3P% against subs
        A Morrow    – .413 FG% , .371 3P% against subs
        Korver        – .431 FG% , .413 3P% against subs
        Jenkins       – hasn’t played a game in the NBA

        I only see one stat there that seems more efficient at all, but not by much, and mostly against subs. I’m not saying it wasn’t a good move to free up a LOT of future cap space, but all those guys combined don’t come close to replacing JJ, much less improving the team for the coming year, which the discussion is about.

        • WhiteVegas

          You are severely overrating Joe Johnson if you think the new guys don’t come close to replacing JJ. For one, the two players I expect to get most of the SG minutes get to the line much better than Joe.

          Williams FTA 6.2

          Harris FTA 4.3
          Johnson FTA 3.1

          Also Korver, who should see a lot of minutes at SF, is a more efficient scorer than Johnson.
          Korver   eFG 57.5% TS 60.0%
          Johnson eFG 52.1% TS 55.7%

          Since we’re discussing improving the team for the coming year, please
          address the fact that ATL got the 4 seed last season without their All
          Star center, who is back healthy and looked like a beast in
          international play this summer.

          I think Horford being back is a bigger factor than Joe being gone. Atlanta got a lot deeper and only lost one starter.

          A lot of the Atlanta offense will shift to Josh Smith and Al Horford, and their plethora of great outside shooters will be able to nail open shots and not need to dominate the ball like Joe. It should also open up Teague’s game as he can now handle the ball freely without constantly having to defer to Joe.

          • p00ka

            I was just responding to JJ vs the list of guys you were saying betters him.
            I haven’t thought about that whole roster and whether or not it’s improved, but there’s no question that getting Horford back is a huge boost to them. I’m not sure I’d be shifting much more offense Josh Smith’s way though, unless someone can finally find a way to contain his belief that he’s an outside shooter. That being said, the guy is a beast if he can play within himself.
            It’ll be interesting to see how that team does this year. We haven’t seen Horford, Smith,etc without JJ.

            • Truuth

              check out this back tracking faggot

              • p00ka_is_a_fish

                What more can you expect from a fish.

                • p00ka

                  Hey!!! Folks, meet my favourite one-liner troll, who even honours me with my name in his alias! When someone’s as lame ass as you, it warms my heart that I must have owned you pretty badly under whatever alias you were under then. Keep coming back! On slow days, you’re a hell of good boost to the ego.

              • p00ka

                lol, I’m starting to get quite enamored by so many trolls coming out to greet me, though I wish they weren’t so lame. *yawn*

    • WhiteVegas

      The team who declined the most that made the playoffs last year is the Bulls. They had a complete dog shit offseason. They gutted their entire bench and they will play most of the season without DRose. They will not be a playoff team.

      • Statement

        And Orlando.

    • Destro

      Name me which of these teams the Raps are better than as of right now :

      New York

      I could easily throw Detroit or Washington in there cuz they both will improve…
      Chicago without Rose is still better and when Rose comes back will be top 4,Philly got a legit 20/10 all star big man…I dont think they went sideways at all….

      Everyone says Raps can sneak in there but WHERE ? we won 23 games this past season…2 rookies + Fields/Lowry puts us from 23 to 40 ? I like Lowry but i dont think so….  

      • Nilanka15

        6ers, Bulls and Bucks aren’t locks by any means.

        I’m not saying we’re a definite playoff team.  I’m just saying that it shouldn’t really surprise anyone if the Raps end up with more wins than either of those 3 teams.

        • Destro

          Ugh yes you should….All those 3 teams are better and been better than us….stop smoking them bath salts….

      • New York barely got in the playoffs last season and Amare and Carmelo will struggle again to click. 
        Milwaukee sucks with two shot happy guys who in Ellis and Jennings who can either win or lose you a game.
        We all know Chicago’s situation. 

        Washington have improved but Toronto, imo, is still deeper and more talented.
        Detroit did nothing but add the biggest draft bust in Drummond, in which I would have a better FT% than him. 
        Washington just added Beal and Okafor (who is overrated) and we are all expecting John Wall and Vesley to improve, which is tough to judge

        • Destro

          and what do we have lol

          • Is Beal that much better than Ross at this point?
            Nene is as worse of a defender as Bargs and his career high in rebounds is 7.8. And we are ripping on Bargs as a terrible rebounder and one dimensional. 
            Okafor is overpaid and will not have a bigger impact on this team than JV. 
            Now we are comparing John Wall, unsure if he is focused on being an all-star and plays no defense, to Kyle Lowry, a guy who was playing at an al-star level before being injured.
            Now you add Fields, an improved Derozen, Acy, Lucas III, and Calderon as your backup point guard. 
            Its not so bad here

  • brother

    I’m happy they went after and got Lowry. Landry? Whatever. I hate the money wasted on Kleiza more than I pine over Landry. Or Olajuwon? That stuff happens. Let’s give Landry a few minutes to at least attempt contributing before we stick a fork in him.

    This year? The defense will blow your mind. Mark my words. Top 10 in defense is a lock. Aim for top 5. Jonas V in the middle, an improved Ed Davis helping out, and a giant jump in wing defense – Ross, Landry, Lowry and you’re going to see an already improved Raptors defense jump in the rankings yet again.

    Defense wins ball games. Barring catastrophic injury or circumstance, this is a .500+ team. .500 ball has meant playoffs or right there forever in the East. Let’s hope that holds true.

    Don’t forget 1 year of experience on these rooks plus freeing Calderon’s cap space by way of expiry or trade near season end makes this team even better in the following year. If they can hit .500 this year, watch out the season after.

    • j bean

      Love your optimism but this team to date hasn’t played a game. Yes there is a lot of potential if everyone plays at the top of their game but how often does a new team and young team come out of the blocks on all cylinders and not stumble big time? 35 wins is a nice improvement but not enough for the playoffs. 

      • brother

        Example of immediate defensive improvement: Casey’s lockout shortened season vs. Jay Triano’s time here with nearly the same squad. Dramatic improvement in half a year.

        Give Casey better guys (as noted) and a full year and see what happens. Nobody can predict anything, but given what little empirical evidence we can have before a game has been played says they’re going to be better.

        • p00ka


          but, but, but, you’re drinking kool-aid because that doesn’t fit the naysayers script.

          • pooka47401

            blame Joe Biden

        • bob

          Are you suggesting that Casey will transform all the rookies and new players into defensive monsters?  I think not. It’s gonna be a rocky season.

    • Just to late you know they are already Top 10 on team defense last season. They’re at 7th place to be specific 

      • brother

        7th in what? Lots of ways to rank teams defensively.

        Here’s one that says 12th (a number I’ve heard before):

        This one at Hoopsdata claims they’re 19th in their Defensive Efficiency metric:

        Sportsillustrated calls them 19th again:

        • Matt52

          I think he meant opp fg %

        • ghost

          Hoopdata have the Heat ranked 13th even though thier Defensive Efficiency ranks them 3rd overall. I would question these rankings… 

          • ghost

            Make that 15th.

        • ghost

          Sports Illustrated link is wrong. Couldn’t find any defensive rankings on this site.

      • Destro

        and they won 23 games,your point is ?

        Wins and Losses count,not TOP 10 defensive imaginary accolades

        • brother

          That’s a funny reply on a raptors forum. I bet you fight with your girlfriend when she gives you too many hummers. Dude, the raptors have been defensive bottom dwellers for years and the win column reflects it. How can somebody come on a raptors site and complain that he isn’t interested in “imaginary” “defensive” “accolades”?

          Winning is a complicated alchemy, but good defense is no doubt a big part of it. Nobody suggested that a top ten defense will win the championship; the postulate is: a very good defensive team will finish at .500 in the east. If .500 isn’t a rational goal for a raptors fan this season any you don’t believe that good defense would be a part of it, give me your girlfriend’s number.

          • Destro

            If your not winning then top 10 defense as a talking point is moot is the point a hole….

  • NyAlesund

    We will see some improvements. If everything will be ok we have a chance to see the guys play in late april.

    • bob

      You mean if the other teams in the Atlantic division suffer from a spate of devastating injuries, and the Raptors will thus rise in the standings.

      • NyAlesund

         I disagree. Despite some opinions I think this Rapts are deeper enough and talented enough to compete for the po spot. I am not saying in 5/6th position but 8th yes. Of course there are many factors to consider, but 4 weeks of training camp and the possibility for Casey to impress his basketball style to the guys on both side of the floor are good reasons to think positively. Also we have at least one fella (Lowry) with point in their hands and I am expecting alot from DD. I don’t see alot of experiment and I will expect the definitive starting five and the rotations after 10/15 games.

        For me the big difference is the offensive talent:last year after Barbosa’s trade, AB was more o less the only guys with the point in their hands. The teams often double him or trying keeping him far to receive the ball and waiting the other fellas win the game. We lost the games because of lack of talent. And with AB out the situation was even worse. How many times we see the guys made a great rallies with a consistent defense, have a chance to win but horrible shots, many turnovers killed us?
        This year will be different: first of all we are not forced to play everytime a pickandroll or a pickandpop with AB, because Lowry has the ability to create an own shot and also we can use DD behind the arc as a shooter or for penetration.

        The defense in going to be more and more efficient for two reasons: we added players defensive minded and Casey can improve the sistem. It means better rotations, better paint protection and improvement in the first line defense. To pass from Calderon to Lowry is a big step.

  • WhiteVegas

     Have you ever even watched them play? Please explain how getting rid of Joe Johnson and Marvin Williams but adding Al Horford (he missed almost the entire season last year), Lou Williams, Devin Harris, Kyle Korver, Anthony Morrow, and Joh n Jenkinsdrops them from a 4 seed to out of the playoffs?

  • WhiteVegas

      Have you ever even watched them play? Please explain how getting rid of
    Joe Johnson and Marvin Williams but adding Al Horford (he missed almost
    the entire season last year), Lou Williams, Devin Harris, Kyle Korver,
    Anthony Morrow, and Joh n Jenkinsdrops them from a 4 seed to out of the

    • Statement

      I still think they will make the playoffs.  It’s just that I think that they will be an easier opponent for the Raps during the season to chalk up the wins.

      Also, Lou Williams and Devin Harris are only meh (to keep with the theme of the article).

  • WhiteVegas

    I’m with Pooka here on cap flexibility. The Raptors still have huge cap space next offseason, and could free up another $6M by amnestying Amir.

    • Jamshid

      So do another 16 team in NBA !!!

      • p00ka

        So? Without analyzing which teams and how much, what difference does it make in stating that the Raps have significant flexibility and the potential to use it should a good deal come up, either through a FA or a trade (more likely, especially with new CBA rules coming up). Others having cap space may mean more competition for some deal, but it sure beats the snot out of not being ijn the game.

        • Jamshid

          “Others having cap space may mean more competition for some deal”
          This is exactly what it means. All these other teams with Cap room better than ours or very close to ours, makes it even harder to use the so called FLEXIBILITY to get free agents in T.O. 

          BC has been gloating about this flexibility and his fan boys have been banging on their drums and  making it sound it was a miracle done by BC ( Matt52).

          The truth is that half of the league has been doing the same quietly while having a better track record than us 😉

          • Matt52

            16 teams +/-$5m, eh? that is a ridiculous spread. $5m is a large amount of cap space. it is diff of $9m offer compared to $14m and about $22m over 4 years. For a guy constantly claiming how I twist facts, this seems quite a bit hypocritical I hate to say.

            do your homework and focus on just more space than the Raps and then factor in how many teams have their amnesty left that could give raps another $4.6-$6m.

            In your never ending conquest to get one over on me you have failed to be objective in your analysis, yet again.

            • Jamshid

              Once again, we are talking about numbers and you got lost 🙂 It is ok, I will break it down for you. I gave the +/- 5 in the first post because I did not feel like listing all the teams and I thought hoopsworld may not be 100% updated so lets use that as a margine of errors. However, lets go with exact numbers here.

              As far as Amnesty 🙂 Do you really have to rely on that now to make a point 🙂 Is it getting that bad for BC fan boys ? 🙂 To be fair though, I am not sure which os these teams have used their amnesty so you can add that for everyone to see. But at the same time, Our biggest contract will be AB next year which is 10.7 and will never be amnestied. After that, we are dealing with 6.2 M contracts which really don’t make that much difference  so the whole amnesty argument is irrelevant.

              1.Cavs: 14.5
              2.Wizards: 17.3
              3.Atlanta: 18.5
              4.Bobcats: 21.3
              5.Detroit: 21.5
              6.Bucks: 21.8
              7.Rockets: 24.1
              8. Utah: 25
              9.Dalls: 27
              10. Spurs: 29

              So here is 10 team that have better Cap Space.

              11. Hornest: 31.3
              12:Raps: 31.5
              13. Warriors: 32.8
              14. Kings: 33.6
              15. Wolves: 33

              Now, that is another 4 team which have a space +/- 2 million which can be just few fillers and errors and … so almost same Cap space … 

              As I said earlier, the +/-5 was used to include for errors in that site which there defiantly exist but that does not change the argument that many teams will have the space next season and having that Cap space is about as huge of advantage as some here thought.

              From now till trade deadline, many other teams can send some of their contracts to contenders and clear cap space as well ( just like Atlanta did) and this number can grow 🙂

              Now, tell us about amnesty Matt52 🙂

              • Jamshid

                “having that Cap space is NOT as huge of advantage as some here thought.”

                • CalgaryRapsFan

                  Most of the time when posters have mentioned cap space as a positive for the Raptors, it has been in response to the negative messages/press regarding the Raptors offseason (ie: Fields signing) and existing contracts that were perceived as “bad” (ie: Amir, Kleiza).

                  Most posters have simply argued that the claim about the Raptors having dug themselves into a financial hole, going forward, is wrong.  I would agree.

                  Looking forward to the 2013-14 season, only 6 Raptors have guaranteed contracts, 2 of which could be amnestied (Bargnani & Amir).  Several other players have options (team or player) or could have qualifying offers extended, but the fact remains that the Raptors are in excellent financial shape, with loads of options and real/potential cap space flexibility.

                  Here are the players under guaranteed, cannot-be-amnestied contracts for the 13/14 season:
                  1. Lowry – $6.21M
                  2. Fields – $6.24M
                  3. Valanciunas – $3.53M
                  4. Ross – $2.68M
                  TOTAL: $18.66M

                  Since only 1 of Amir/Bargnani can be amnestied, the true guaranteed salary amount would be:
                  A) $25.16M (if Bargnani amnestied)
                  B) $29.66M (if Amir amnestied)
                  C) $36.16M (if neither is amnestied)

                  I agree with Matt52 and others, that argue that the Raptors are in a good place, financially speaking.  Being among the teams with cap flexibility is definitely an advantage, over at least half the teams in the league.  Nobody said the Raps were the only team with cap space, nor do they have to have the most cap space for it to be advantageous for them.

                  One of the best things for the Raptors is that if they choose to maximize their cap space after next season, they’d have several good young trade assets at their disposal as well (ie: DeRozan as RFA for S&T deal, Davis with 2 team option years, Lucas with 1 team option year, Acy with multiple team option years, Kleiza & Gray with 1 player option year – ie: expiring contracts, if they exercise their options).

                  I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make, other than simply attacking Matt52.
                  Do the Raps have a young, talented, full-of-potential, up-and-coming roster, with lots of real/potential cap space?  Yes.  Are more moves required to become a legitimate contender?  Of course.  Does the combination of trade assets, cap space and future signing exceptions leave the team in a great position to further imporve?  Absolutely!

                • Jamshid

                  “I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make,”

                  Why BC fans are so sensitive when we compare the team to the rest of the league ? Why are you so sensitive when we state the facts and don’t just say “if then and else …” . The fact are what I stated. We have some flexibility which is worth than 33% of the league. Our assets ( the likes DD, Davis, Amir ) are at best, just above average talent in the league and this is why there are rumours of even amnestying the likes of Amir, who we invested for past 3 season on, for 6 million in cap space.

                  The point is that things are not as rosy as BC fan boys portray. 

                • p00ka

                  See below post and try to clue in to what is/isn’t included in your “facts”, as it pertains to cap flexibility. Your “facts” are numbers that exclude other factors involved in salary cap.

                • sleepz

                  “Do the Raps have a young, talented, full-of potential, up and coming roster with lots of real/potential cap space?

                  When you phrase it like that and look at the team there can be an honest opinion to be made that this is indeed the case.

                  Others might look at it differently however. The Raptors are young but outside of Jonas (and even he gets a question mark) there are no stars, potential stars or all-stars on the roster. Young with potential is great but what is the ceiling on that potential? It’s easy to say the sky is the limit for young players because they haven’t proven themselves one way or the other. Andrea and Derozan for example were billed the exact same way however it can be argued that we have a fairly good idea of what they are about and neither are the type of talent you need to compete at a high level. I might be wrong, but thus far their careers indicate their potential is not game changing or even remotely enough to build a franchise around.

                  Lowry is a solid acquisition but once again can he be the guy? Maybe, but he’s yet to take his game to that type of level, although last year was a breakthrough year for him minus the injuries.

                  I am fine with the drafting of Ross but based on watching him at Washington I think that he will be servicable but no star in this league. I do think JV has all-star potential. I question building a team around him.  Still we haven’t seen him play 1 minute in the NBA yet so it remains to be seen what he will become. Everyone else on the roster is servicable but not special. Too many decent players and not enough ballers to make a run.

                  Can the cap space help in obtaining that type of player? Yes, but as has been illustrated above, there are many teams that can also take that approach and our history of attracting quality FA’s is non-existent.

                  Perhaps BC with the ‘flexibility’ can trade for that type of talent? Maybe, but once again based on the track record with the Raps, the last thing you want is Bryan Colangelo trying to trade for a star player.

                  Nothing wrong with the optimistic approach, however it boggles my mind that when you take a critical look at this team it’s often termed as hating. I’m not saying you said it but quite often if fans don’t see the vast potenial of the youth or see this years developments as moving in the right direction, well you must be wrong because they are a better team. They might indeed be but they were a lot closer to being at the bottom than the top last year and it can be argued they are still closer to the bottom than the top. They have more youth and talent but what kind of players are we talking about? You need elite players to win consistently in this league. Raps still (arguably) do not have that.

                • p00ka

                  “You need elite players to win consistently in this league. Raps still (arguably) do not have that.”

                  Do you have any suggestions what the Raps could have done differently last year and this summer to obtain the elite talent you speak of?

                  Toronto is not Miami, NY, LA, so there’s no way we can build a contender over night. It’s going to take a slow build and the Raps have done an awful lot right over this past year to work in that direction.

                  One can wallow in past mistakes (history man, look through the windshield, not the rear view mirror), or cry about how they’re not close to contending (any realistic suggestions how that could have been accomplished this year?), or look at what they currently have (you can only work with what you have. fantasizing about what you don’t is senseless), and what they’re doing with it.

                  Are good moves not being made? Is there not some reason for optimism that a build is underway? What’s the point of keeping even a shred of optimism hidden until they have superstars and are contenders? May as well jump on a current contender’s bandwagon because no amount of bitching and complaining is going to suddenly give the team options they don’t have, nor make them contenders over night. Sport is about fun/entertainment, man. If you see nothing to like about your team, see no hope for the future, why choose to go through the misery? Find a team you can be happy with and enjoy.

                • sleepz

                  It’s hard to say what could have been done last year or the year before as it’s years of not making the decision to totally rebuild and go the draft route which I think has lead us to where we are now. Its been years of holding onto players like Bargnani and Derozan instead of jettisoning them for draft picks which has led to this point (as an example). 

                  I agree you can’t build a contender overnight, but I also believe why tread water trying to assemble mediocore pieces? You watch Breaking Bad at all? Colangelo has been trying to implement ‘half measures” since he has been the GM instead of going full measures and seeing where this takes the franchise. If you can’t get elite talent through trades or Free agency go the draft route. It’s not a guaranteed option but quite honestly no option is and it’s better than all other attempts to build a team by this GM.

                  BC has made some moves to improve the team this year but the overall talent level needs to be ratcheted up significantly more to be talking consistent playoff team, not a one off.

                  Btw, what you call “bitching and complaining” I call observation and analysis. And just because I don’t support all of teams management moves blindly and with hope in my heart DOESN’T mean I should go find another team to watch as per your solution. It only means you should probably not respond to my observations if you don’t like what I’m saying.

                • Jamshid

                  “Btw, what you call “bitching and complaining” I call observation and analysis. And just because I don’t support all of teams management moves blindly and with hope in my heart DOESN’T mean I should go find another team to watch as per your solution. ”

                  This is the culture that has been encouraged and enforced on the board by the likes of Matt52.

                • p00ka

                  My apologies for the “bitching and complaining” label. It stems from so many posts referring to fan boys, kool-aid, herd, etc. just because some choose to look for optimism more than anything else. “Realism” comes in different forms.

                  “It only means you should probably not respond to my observations if you don’t like what I’m saying.”

                  With all due respect, the “Reply” link is not the “Like” link.

                • Jamshid

                  “They might indeed be but they were a lot closer to being at the bottom than the top last year and it can be argued they are still closer to the bottom than the top.”

                  Nicely Said. I will add to this and say the following. We “maybe” getting better but at what rate and at what cost ? How are we improving compare to the rest of the league and how long is it taking us to get where we want to get. Taking tiny baby steps toward our goal is NOT something to be jubilant about.

                • CJT

                  I think taking small steps towards your goal is very important.  There are only a handfull of “franchise caliber” players in the league, or real game changers.  If our goal is to eventually have one commit to this team it seems important to put the best possible supporting cast on the court and to demonstrate to other players that this organization is going to right direction even if only by small increments.  Add talent through the draft and upgrade via free agency and trades when possible.

                • Jamshid

                  I agree with you that adding talents through the draft, getting the right pieces and having a direction is important. I am all about that but doing it at the right speed and getting the right talents. We spent 3 season developing Amir Johnson and now some of BC fans talk about using amnesty on him to get more cap space. This is not right. If it takes us 2-3 season, 2 -3 draft picks to just find a rotational player then we will never make the next step !! This is when the rate of improvement comes into play.

                • Matt52

                  this is where maintaining flexibility to be opportunistic comes in to play. I guess it would be too much to ask to think outside the box and look at amnestying Amir or kleiza to sign a max talent the same as including one of those players in a trade? I realize it is not the same but the end result is.

                • Mess



                • CJT

                  the same could be said for any move a team makes though.  If you want to make upgrades sometimes you have to give up players you like or use the amnesty on a player that you have been developing in order to move forward.  It is a tough decision I agree you would love to be able to add all the pieces you like without having to give up anything of value, but that doesn’t sound realistic.

                • Well ok then go give suggestions to BC to ask Miami for a trade of Amir for LeBron to get “elite” talent. Lets get real.

                • Do the Nuggets have a “star” player? No. They just have a deep, balanced squad. They almost knocked off the Lakers last year. They have young talent with plenty of potential to be all-stars. Your not going to find a lot of players often to build a franchise around. Especially during these times in the NBA, where everybody wants to create superteams, how can you build a franchise around someone. You just have to build teams that are young and talented, not with most elite star talent (LeBrons, Kobes) and make them as deep as possible. Because soon enough, they will jump ship somewhere else. 

                • sleepz

                  The nuggets have Gallo, Iggy and Lawson. I would take any of those players over the Raptor players.

                  These players also have significantly more trade value than Raps roster, JV excluded, so they have more options to improve their team quickly.

                  I don’t see any players jumping ship on OKC?

                • p00ka

                  “I don’t see any players jumping ship on OKC?”

                  Irrelevant, since none of them have yet had the freedom to.

                • CJT

                  You seem to be looking at this from the perspective of compared to other teams only.  would you not agree that having financial flexibility as a franchise is better than not having it?  Regardless of what other teams have cap space that is beyond our control.  Control the things you can and give yourself the best opportunity to move forward. 

                • Jamshid

                  Having Financial flexibility is important if you know what to do with it. Here, I am not criticizing BC for giving us the financial flexibility. I am criticizing people who make the financial flexibility more important than it really is !! I was just showing how many other teams in the league have the same or even better financial flexibility than us !! Cap space should not be the ONLY goal going forward. It should come with a plan, with getting the right players, with having the right cultures and making the steady move toward a goal. Just getting the financial and then blowing it on players like Kapano, Hedo or .. does not make us better.

                • p00ka

                  Oh, so you’re not crying about now, but crying about a few years ago. Where’s Dr Phil when you need him?

                • Jamshid

                  My friend, you have already proven to be immature , illogical and childish with your personal attacks and name callings. 
                  No need to embarrass yourself anymore with this one liners 😉 We all know what you are made of now.

                • p00ka

                  I just do my best to tell it like it is. I can’t live in a make believe world, I call Jamshit, and make things up.

                • Matt52

                  you don’t see the plan taking shape before and after the failed attempt to land Nash?

                  you don’t think Lowry and Fields are right players to be adding (I.e legit nba starters)?

                  you don’t think this team’s culture virtually changed overnight with Casey?

                  you don’t think getting younger and deeper while maintaining flexibility is ‘making the steady move toward a goal’?

                • Jamshid

                  Nash attempt is an evidence of what I am saying which is lack of vision.  Going from rebuild to retool to accelerated rebuild and … that simply is a team with no plan going forward.

                  Lowery was a great signing but Fields with that price tag was not. We don’t need more players like Filed. We need players which can make a difference.

                  Getting younger does not mean getting deeper !! you have to get players which have  talent and have future.  Look at Amir, after 3 years, even the most loyal BC fans are suggesting amnesty to clear Cap !! That is not  getting deeper !!

                  Again, I emphasize that BC made a baby step in the right direction with getting Casey and Lowery but taking this baby steps while our competitors are sprinting in the right direction will not make any difference in the long run.

                • Matt52

                  There is no e in Lowry.

                  Lowry was a trade not a signing.

                  Fields was overpaid by $1.5 or $2m? if it was a good or great contract he’d never have left the Knicks because they would have matched.

                  younger and deeper:
                  two starters from last year will most likely be key reserves (Calderon and Amir).
                  Fields is better than JJ.
                  Kleiza is healthy.
                  third string pg is huge upgrade in case of injury or foul trouble or trade.

                  Amir (or my fav rap kleiza) would only be amnestied to get a top talent. I know thinking outside the box is a struggle but that should not be a reach.

                  so as p00ka showed yesterday raps are easily top third in league with flexibility financially and you admit they are making progress…… seriously why the non-stop vendetta?

                • CJT

                  sometimes you have to roll the dice on a desirable player and sometimes it doesn’t work out.  Hopfully it will. 

                • matt52

                  To that I would also add continue to improve from within.

                  we’ll see next summer how important these things are next summer with new CBA.

                • CJT

                  agreed.  I am certainly not a CBA expert, but When Mark Cuban is worried about money, that tells me something.

              • Jamshid

                Looking into amnesty, from the list of the 10 teams that have better Cap space than us, 7 of them have amnesty available 🙂 🙂

                • p00ka

                  yeah? Which ones?

              • p00ka

                Perhaps you’re too young to have clued in yet, but one of the important things in ensuring you don’t make a fool of yourself in an argument, is to know what you don’t know.

                I don’t know how much expertise you have in the CBA, and all it’s ramifications, but I see you’re using only the “guaranteed” salary numbers that hoopsworld defines. This excludes such dollars as player options that you can bet your life the player will exercise. A few examples of how you need to know/consider more before spouting off about cap space:

                T-Wolves- your number doesn’t include AK47 player option of 10.2M. Any chance he’s going to exercise that option? doh. It also excludes Rubio’s team option at 4.0M. Ya think the team will exercise that? doh. It also excludes a team option on Derrick Williams for $5M (likely they don’t give up on a #2 pick after 2 yrs?) and a Q offer on Pekovic, their only center, of $6M, and he could very well cost them more when he goes RFA.
                So, assume for a second those are all exercised, they’re at $58M (this year’s cap). You know AK isn’t running away from $10M, you know their taking their option on Rubio. Just add those 2 and their at $47, not $33.

                Warriors- your number doesn’t include Jefferson’s player option of $11M. Do you think he might take that to the bank? doh. It also doesn’t include Curry’s $5.3 Q offer. ya think he might command a lot more than that? doh. It also doesn’t include Rush’s player option of $4M. Even without a substantial raise for Curry, that brings the total to $52M. Now, there’s a very good chance that Curry’s raise bring them over the cap.

                I’m not going to waste my time on any further analysis. That should be enough to make the point that you need to do more than read a number to understand what it represents. Do some fn homework before making a further fool of yourself, or find a way to realize what you don’t know.

                BTW, to say the amnesty possibility is irrelevant, is stupidity, to make it simple for you. $6.2M difference in what you can offer is irrelevant? Shit, I wish you were an opposing GM. And btw, only 13 teams still have an amnesty option available. Of the teams you list above, their possibles are-
                Cavs- none
                Wiz- none
                Atl- Horford… safe to say none?
                Bobcats- none
                Detroit- Charlie V
                Bucks- Gooden
                Rockets- none
                Utah- none
                Dallas- none
                Spurs: Parker, Bonner
                Hornets- none
                Warriors- noneKings- Cousins, SalmonsWolves- none

                So 10 of the 14 teams you have listed automatically have $6.2M less to play with than the Raps, even before looking at more accurate assessments, than you did, of cap commitments.

                • Jamshid

                  First of all, Keep it clean and act like an adult. Keep all the fool comments to yourself because it just makes you look immature.

                  All numbers are from hoopsworld and they use the same criteria for all the teams without any assumptions or … 
                  The numbers are guaranteed total as you noticed. 
                  This will take away all the “if and then and …”, all the assumptions and … out of the calculation.If we don’t do this, then there is no real way of knowing the Cap spaces because then it is all what someone’s perception of contracts or what players will do and …Now if you want to make those assumptions, go a ahead. Go through each team, player by player, loop at player options and then tell us which one will opt in and why and then recalculate the numbers 🙂 :)As far as amnesty, I added that to the next post. As you can se, 7 of the 10 team, have their amnesty options as well.

                • p00ka

                  At least you came to your senses enough to recognize that your “facts” represent something other than what you present them as, thus making your argument senseless.
                  All other factors aside, are you really trying to stand by “facts” that assume such things as Jefferson and AK walking away from $11M and $10M. Sorry to break this to you, but a “fact” that encompasses senseless assumptions does not equate to “facts” in this world, despite your lame attempt to lump them in with “if, then, else” logic.

                • Jamshid

                  “At least you came to your senses enough to recognize that your “facts” represent something other than what you present them as, thus making your argument senseless.”
                  How did you get to that conclusion ?? 

                  My facts represent what is real while you seem to live in the fantasy that Matt52 lives 🙂 Read the facts again and you may get a view of the whole league.

                • p00ka

                  Are you really this dumb, or just a troll playing games.

                  Your “facts” represent “guaranteed contracts” in NBA language, not factual cap space. My apologies for thinking you finally understood that. You say one can’t assume possibilities, yet your “facts” assume such things as :
                  -GS-Jefferson will walk away from $11M
                  -Wolves-AK will walk away from $10M
                  -GS won’t sign Curry
                  -Wolves won’t sign Rubio
                  -Kings won’t sign Cousins
                  -Spurs won’t sign K Leonard
                  -Jazz won’t sign Favors
                  -Bucks won’t sign Ellis
                  -Detroit-Charlie V will walk away from $8.6M and they won’t sign Monroe
                  -Bobcats- Gordon will walk away from $13M
                  -Hawks will kiss Josh Smith goodbye
                  -Wiz- Ariza will walk away from $7.7M, Wall’s option won’t be picked up, neither will Vesely and 4 other team options on young players
                  -Cavs- will just tell Irving and Thompson to go away

                  You can’t have it both ways kid. You can’t say that the “facts” can’t assume anything, then use numbers that do assume things, including some incredibly preposterous ones. try to keep track now. Remember that “guaranteed” you’re using is not representing “factual cap space”, as you represented it as. You’re assuming stuff, just like you say others shouldn’t, but many of your assumptions are mind-boggling dumb ones.

                • Jamshid

                  “Are you really this dumb, or just a troll playing games.”

                  Don’t waste you time replying to me because I stopped reading your post when you decided to act like a 5 year old and started the name calling !!! So I am ignoring what you wrote. My Numbers are the facts and anything other than that, is speculation about which player will opt in or out which no one will know for 100% 😉 Deal with it … 🙂 🙂 

                • p00ka

                  Got it. You’re dumbass assumptions are fact, but far more logical assumptions are rubbish. Brilliant!! Do they have schools on your mountain that you haven’t found yet?

                • Matt52

                  oh jamshit you just got owned in a manner I am not even sure I could do. nice work p00ka. I am working away on my iPad on vacation…… but I am not typing from a western Canadian university while claiming to be in Europe! I can’t imagine anyone who would do such a thing….. can you jamshit?

                • Matt52

                  Now that I have a keyboard:


                  It is very funny how the parameters of the argument change.  Weren’t you advocating in the post above that the Raps would not let DD or ED go after all the time and development put in to them?  Because of this they should be included in any cap figure?  Now you are saying that you can’t put a number on the salary figures because, and I quote, “there is no real way of knowing the Cap spaces becuase then it is all what someone’s perception of contracts or what players will do and … Now if you want to make those assumptions, go a ahead.”

                  I’m not sure what to believe from you anymore.

              • Matt52

                5m doesn’t matter. 6.2doesn’t matter. you are interesting in what matters and doesn’t. seems whatever fits the argument.

                As we continue the lesson, your next homework is to go through and look at the team and player options likely to be picked up. you think Ben Gordon declines$13m or Okafor turns down $14.5?

                until you start making rational comments you are a waste of time and I have roller coasters to ride.

                • Jamshid

                  “As we continue the lesson, your next homework is to go through and look at the team and player options likely to be picked up. you think Ben Gordon declines$13m or Okafor turns down $14.5?”
                  LOOOL, that is your homework pal 🙂 Why so angry Matt52 ?? Why do you always have to lose your cool when you are proven wrong !! 🙂 🙂 I thought by now you would be used to it.

                  I guess you still did not understand margin of error and why I included the +/- 5 Million. It is OK, I broke it down for you and the herd so you can see how 33% of league has a better cap space than us  🙂

                  As far as what you said above, that is all speculation and … 

                  No one knows for sure which player will pick up his option due to various reasons.

                  This is why what I said, is pure fact and what you always say is pure speculation and means nothing.

                  This is why I write about reality of the league and Raptor and you write for the herd in the fantasy land and have become a mouthpiece for BC.

                  “until you start making rational comments you are a waste of time and I have roller coasters to ride.”

                  LOOOOL, Not again Matt 🙂 In our last exchange, you said the same thing that you will not address my posts, that I am waste of your time and …. But you can not help it, Can you ??

                  Every single time you have to threat to not post a reply but then again, you are back at it and embarrassing yourself !!

                  It is OK buddy. We all know by now that NUMBERS and FACTS are NOT your thing. You like your little fantasy land and talking about Gay and Super Star coming to Toronto and …

                  It is OK Matt 😉 no need to to get sad and angry. Now, go play your game 😉

                • Matt52

                  P00ka has already shown your arguments to be worthless. No need for me to do the same.

                  Really interesting how when proven much more than wrong you breAk out the keep it clean garbage.

                  Next lesson is to examine teams who actually have a player who qualifies for amnesty.

                  Try to stay on task and refrain from personal comments.

                • p00ka

                  Jamshit, you’re acting like a spurned lover, to the extreme, over the internet. Did Matt not let you touch his body that you craved for so deeply?

            • Jamshid

              By the way Matt52, It seems like BC is done for the summer. After Lowery deal , you were predicting that the moves for the summer were not done otherwise this was a disappointing summer !! So were you wrong AGAIN with your predictions and was this a disappointing summer for you ? I know you wanted Rudy Gay but ended with Fields !!

              • hater

                ur obsession with matt52 never stops. get a life dumb fk

              • Matt52

                Unlike yourself I have enough confidence to share an opinion and enough humility to consider when I might be wrong and to accept when I am.

                I continue to wonder if this belief of every word I type is flattering or scary.

    • Destro

      Its meaningless if nobody wants to come here and nobody will if its another bad losing season…

      • Matt52

        In free agency maybe. But tearing everything apart is unlikely to change perception either.

        Cap space is also valuable in a trade.

        Raps have a good nucleus. Like Danny ferry said keep improving from within and maintain flexibility to be opportunistic should opportunities arise.

        Hopefully new CBA changes things. Time will tell. I like that I controllable event better than lottery balls bouncing

  • bob

    Meh…. and how many seasons has BC been making the same promise….4-5-6 ???

    New Toronto fans keep on emerging on this fine forum and sharing the same hopes and fantasies. It never stops.

    TO fans are not rabidly demanding playoffs, they just enjoy going to the ACC, cheering when the ball goes through the hoop, and getting free pizza occasionally.

    • Jamshid

      This will be his 7th season at the job and after all these years, he has not been able to deliver a competitive team.

      We should ask Tom Liston to do a statistical analysis on the following topic:

      How many players have wore Raptors Jersey in the last 7 years and how does it compare to the rest of the league ??

      I have a feeling we had one of the biggest turn over when it came to players. 

      • ad

        Fact of the matter is, BC has never been able to deliver a player the calibre of nash to the raptors like he did with the suns. Until BC acquires a star wing the raptors will be continue to be a perennial 10th-12th place team. I’ve never been so frustrated with an offseason like this one just because he has certain assets (DD, davis, calderon, exemption etc) yet refuses to make a trade for a good wing. Star wings do not go on trees but a trade can be done with some creativity and gutsiness. Apparently, BC has neither.

        • FAQ

          Before a “good wing” comes here, he will want to see good guards, good PF’s and a good center on this team…. before he invests his career on the Raptors. 

          Apparently, the Raps have a bad reputation on how Vince was treated.  Besides, good US players may consider Toronto like playing in Europe, which is not a good move for them.

          Sorry, but that’s the perception……

        • Matt52

          I think you are putting a lot more value on those assets than the rest of the league. maybe at the trade deadline they have more value especially Jose’s expiring because to get any high paid talent he is going to be needed to make the numbers work.

          • Jamshid

            You mean like they did for Barbosa !!! Looking at the board, you were one those people who was saying that how Barbosa’s contract will get us a high talent and how valuable it was and … for the whole season 🙂 Typical mouthpiece for BC , just like Dough Smith …

            The fact is and looking at the past, if Jose gets traded , the best we an expect back is a pick at around 20 th spot in the draft. 

            • Mchappy52

              your posts clearly show a lack of experience in life. there has to be two willing parties in any negotiation. having the means to make a deal is useless if there is not another interested party able to return what you are seeking. if you are going to use my forum posts on the main page you could at least offer the courtesy of not cherry picking and treating thoughts and opinions as gospel fact. again to be scared or flattered remains the question I keep asking myself.

              • Jamshid

                “your posts clearly show a lack of experience in life. there has to be two willing parties in any negotiation”
                Actually a big part of being a good sale person is to create interest and excitement about what you are offering. It is about enticing the interest of various parties on what you have to offer and make manoeuvres to make your product fit their needs.
                It is about making the other party realize they need what you are offering and see the value in it.

                This is the talent that separates great sale person from an average and poor one. The poor sale person waits for people to show interest and opportunities to show themselves while the great sales person, creates his own opportunities.

                That being said, I still believe there was more interest on Barbosa and it is not as you are claiming in your effort to defend BC.

                Now, as far as the rest of your post, I am doing what I said I will do when ever I want and it is to call you out on what you write here and prove your wrong and show everyone that you are nothing but a mouthpiece for BC and that your writing are illogical and just paint a fantasy  for the herd.

                Now, it is you who claimed that will ignore me and not write a reply since I am not waste your time but then can not resist and comes back and … 🙂 So make up your mind 🙂 because I am here to stay  and this will continue as long as I want 😉

                • p00ka

                  Matt52 —- the answer is….. What is scary?

                • Matt52

                  indeed… and most likely a daily double.

                • Matt52

                  so you think BC took a worse offer on Barbosa? do you know how insane that sounds? why would BC take a worse offer?

                  yes everyone around here is thankful for your continued enforcement of the RR-matt52 anti conspiracy act of 2012. unfortunately the enforcement appears to be as popular as a prostate exam with rusted barbed wire.

                • CJT

                  I am not sure why you are so rabid.  You are certainly entitled to do what you feel you need to.  but as a completely objective 3rd party you need to know that you are not succeeding well on your plan to discredit Matt.  Infact more often than not you prove his point for him.  Just thought you should know.

        • player

          how about a star powerforward and he doesn’t even have to be 7ft. tall

        • Jamshid

          That is vert true. 

          BC was brought in to legitimize this franchise and to use his STAR power to bring star players to T.O. However, he has failed miserably. He brought the Italian GM assistant here so that we get the best of Europe. Who did we get from Europe the past 7 years that has exceeded the expectations !!!
          BC’s weak resume in Toronto gives strength to the speculations that all his work in Phoenix was orchestrated behind the seasons by his father and his dad’s people 🙂

      • Jamshid

        So Liston, will you be looking into the player turn over in the BC era for Raptors versus the rest of the league !!!
        I have a feeling that those numbers will surprise the herd and fan boys and they can see how many times BC has changed course during his era …

        • Nilanka15

          There’s a thread in the forum dedicated specifically for Liston’s Statophile suggestions.

          Oh, wait a minute….

          • Jamshid

            I am sure he sees it here 🙂 I can assure you this will be a much better topic than some of his pervious work on How Amir is the most efficient offensive player on this team and …

            • p00ka

              There’s a point at which stupidity gets so far over the top that it’s funny. There might be a future for you in the movies! I’d suggest getting your butt down to LA when they hold auditions for the next Three Stooges or Dumb & Dumber movie. Ya gotta be a shoe-in for any part they’re having difficulty finding someone that can pull it off realistically.

              • Jamshid

                Thanks for proving my points P00ka 😉

                • p00ka

                  Happy to oblige. You make it easy to prove what you’re “points” represent.

  • Nilanka15
    • p00ka

      Sickening and saddening, but great find. Things that make you go hmmmmmm.  There would be a lot more of that going on if we acted in a bar the way we do here.

      • Nilanka15

        lol, agreed.

    • Matt52

      and sadly this is why I will never attend a RR get together. I am always happy to agree to disagree when it becomes obvious both view points have been made and neither side budges in opinion.

      my wife once worked on a psych ward and she said she was amazed at how many people come in for treatment who appear to be functioning members of society (I.e employed, decent jobs, etc.). not saying people with issues are bad people (lord knows I have my own) but there are people out there who may not have the same control or awareness of whatever ails them.

      • Matt52

        oh yeah and alcohol is never a good mix within a disagreement.

      • Jamshid

        “I am always happy to agree to disagree when it becomes obvious both view points have been made and neither side budges in opinion.”

        Why are you lying again ?? 
        You are one of those people who makes everything personal. 
        You think if someone does not agree with your opinion then they have something against you !!! 

        Dude, look at your track record on the board and how you made every exchange with people who don’t agree with you into a mud throwing, name calling games …

        • Matt52

          I am not sure what you are talking about. I do not recall ever name-calling anyone. I do recall situations where I might have regretted a post or made a momentary slip. in those times i think i apologized pretty quickly. did i ever make a mistake? in over 9000 posts i am sure i have so if the receiving party is out there reading, I do apologize if I have not up until this point.

          As for your opinions in the post, I have reflected and you have not shed any new light on the matter to make me change the opinion. I am willing to agree to disagree…. as always.

          p.s. keep it clean, pal.

          p.p.s. I do admit to yanking your chain here…. like the mocking p.s. above. unfortunately I find this temptation hard to resist given the posts.

          • Jamshid

            “and sadly this is why I will never attend a RR get together.”
            Dear, it is all here for everyone to see how you lose it every time and I have to remind you to keep it clean and not personal.It is all here for everyone to see how you react to opposing views on the board and how you use the herd to gang up on them or ban them or … Just look at what happened to the message board since you became a moderator and how many old timers left !!You can see what ever you want but your writing is here for everyone to judge and knowing you, you can not help it. You will do it again and I will point this to you again :)Even the above statement about NOT going to RR parities shows your line of thinking !!! you take it personal and this is why you think others do the same !! On the other hand, many of us here just share what we think of the team and the situation and at the end of the day, we are all fan of the same team. Not only that, at the end of the day, this is just a sport and a hobby and in grand scheme of things, it is meaningless. This is why many of us attend the party when we are in Town and have few drinks and great discussions. 

            • p00ka

              ” just share what we think of the team”

              You’re hardly part of what ever group you’re referring to. You’re primary goal, since this alias showed up, is to stalk Matt52 and invent shit about him. I don’t know if it’s that your meds aren’t working, you once took a beating from someone named Matt, or someone’s slipping up on securing your cage, but you’re scary. Are there addiction counselors near your hut?

            • Matt52

              I am not attempting to force my opinion on you. clearly our perceptions differ. I am more than happy to agree to disagree. I am also happy if you don’t agree to this as well.

              My lack of interest of attending RR parties directly stems from the weeks of posts made on forum calling me out prior to my knowledge and the unbalanced and what i perceive to be unhealthy comments you have posted in the last number of weeks. in short you scare me. yup that about sums it up.

              regarding my work in the forums it would appear since I no longer moderate old timers are welcome to return assuming they were not banned for being unable to follow simple rules.

  • David Abela

    With Lowry as Colangelos go to starter, bold statement, Jose will have something to prove as he did in role with TJ in distant past. Ross should push derozan. No challenges and too much job security at the 5. Landry will prove his contract was worth it- no way but will overachieve and I like the chemistry that I saw at summer league between Lowry and fields.

    • regulating.raptor

      reguardless i dont think that starting pg position should go to jose at all, simply because of how much of a liability he would be on defence. terrible perimiter D and always gets blowen by easy at the rim. at least with lowry , he can fulfill that need and is a more effient scorer than jose. Dont get me wrong though jose’s role is very valuable to the raptors this season because he is a better distributor than lowry which he will be very valuable getting the bench involved.       

  • regulating.raptor

    Overall i’m expecting toronto to make the playoffs at the 7th seed , 6th seed with a healthy roster. the defense will be more improved compared to last year, that being said the reason why they lost so many games was becasue thier ability to score (turnovers insane), most of the games they lost were close ones. with a more improved defense and a better offence will be more then enough for them to make the playoffs.

    lowry’s defence , 3pt shooting and ablitiy to get to line will be a huge impovement at the pg postion. Derozen i think has improved during the off season but nothing drastic , with derozen i expect to see a better point average around 17.5pg better field goal percentage and better defence. landry fields is a definite upgrade at SF because we all know he can hold his known on defence not as good as james johnson but still pretty good and his ablitliy to score is incompareable with johnson. i think fields is going to a have a better season than they way he had it in his rookie year because he will have more oppertunity to score (with no melo being around) and facilitate because he is a good passer. andras point average is going to be higher as long as he can stay healthy. jonas will be decent a center but nothing amazing this year because it usually takes time for centers to develop in the nba. he is going to be promising though. only a small handfull of centers had a immediate impact. i can see jonas averaging 7ppg ,7rb, 1.5 blks, 5 fouls.

    raptors bench will be a huge upgrade because of jose being a exellent passer getting the bench involved as well he has a great field goal percentage. see him still getting the same numbers coming off the bench. Ross will have a better rookie season than JVal with his defense and smooth shooting. klaza abliltie to score , ed davis’s ablitie to rebound and defend with amirs hustle just adds more depth to the bench. only player im unsure of is acy (i think they should send him to europe for a season to improve.  

  • bob

    Meh, Raptors still on a downward trajectory.  Hopefully they will bottom out this and next season.  Meanwhile the rest of the NBA gains strength.  Gonna be a tough season for the Raptor rookie team and will be taken to school more often than not.

  • gradgrind101

    I think the 2012/2013 raps will be an interesting team to watch…Probably not a playoff team but maybe.
    Here’s why:
    1) JV has not proven anything worth noting so far in his amateur/pro career. He will struggle with fouls/defense/post play. If he is aggressive on D then the fouls will be acceptible otherwise if he gets charged with too many reaching fouls it’s usually a sign of inability to match up. Likely he will be a spark plug off the bench and a liability as a starter.
    2) I like KL. Ummph he is good. And he will be the best raptor this year.
    3) Can Bargs continue to get better on D? We know he can score but so what! Still needs to do more than score.
    4) TorontoRaptor/TerrenceRoss (TR2) will do well against poor periferal defenses but he will struggle getting buckets against teams with good active defenses (he has an underdeveloped dribble drive game which allows defenders to take away the floor). He will do better with Lowry and worse with Calderon.
    5) DD should be more consistant as he matures another year which is a big plus
    6) Everyone else are bench players which is better this year with Calderon coming off the bench.
    7) Raptors will win minimum 38 games with a healthy team