This week on The Doctor is In with Phdsteve, we look at Colangelo’s end of season press conference and unpack what he actually means by “internal organic growth.” After that we spend some time wondering if the Raptors should implement the Triangle offense and if that has always been Colangelo’s plan in acquiring so many wing players! Lastly, after noodling around “Inside Colangelo’s Brain” perhaps the guy to get moved this summer in addition to Bargs is not one of the wings as we all assumed but instead Kyle Lowry.

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  • monocled_gentleman_scholar

    I’m not sure all the skepticism about internal growth is warranted. This roster has not been together for a full season yet, give it time. I thought Casey made a nice comparison to Indiana’s current team, which took a while to produce results.

    • raptors phdsteve

      I agree that the roster should be able to grow next year as is- my skepticism is more with the *selling* of this idea to the fans as being the plan all along. We have heard this kind of “Colangelo-speak” before with phrases like “retooling” or “asset accumulation.”

      • ItsAboutFun

        Well, since re-tooling, asset accumulation, and internal growth is primarily what’s been going on since Bosh’s departure, what’s there to be skeptical about?

        • Copywryter

          Seven years of Groundhog Day.

  • c_bcm

    Interesting talking points here. I find it a bit depressing that having conversations about getting Dwight Howard, or Phil Jackson on this team is considered ludicrous, and results is abject vitriol in the comments sections (just wait, its coming). Maybe we as the fan base need to increase our expectations of this franchise. Why can’t we go after these players or executives? Is it because the rest of the league view us as we view ourselves? Possibly. But I looks to teams like the Clippers or Warriors who are in the midst of rebranding themselves and heightening expectations of acceptable outcomes (in trades, games, and seasons). We are well-positioned, IMO, to be the next team to be able to do this.

  • Statement

    I posted this somewhere else and I won’t draw any meaningful conclusions from it, but the Raptors 5-man unit of Lowry, Derozan, Gay, Val and Amir was 2nd in the league in net points / 100 possessions (min 300 minutes played).

    It was also the 29th most used 5 man lineup which means that the sample size (as a starting unit, not in general) is small so you can really draw TOO much from it.

    However, it is somewhat encouraging and I would like to see what this group can do over a full season.

    IMHO, comparing them to Indiana, the only advantage that they COULD have going forward is that JV will be better than Hibbert. At all other positions, Indiana has either equal or better talent.

    • monocled_gentleman_scholar

      I agree, but I’ll quibble with you about Indiana having the better talent (aside from JV). Is Hill really better than Lowry? Is Stephenson really better than Demar? Maybe George tips the scale against Rudy, but looking at the numbers alone, they’re pretty much on par (even their eff. ratings are similar).

      Now consider the fact that Indiana has been together for 2 or 3 years, while our current roster (and especially its core) has been together for half a season.

      • Statement

        Lowry is one of those cases where I say the Raps have equal talent.

        Stephenson has a better all around game, IMHO than Derozan in that he is a better defender, passer and rebounder.

        Paul George is a better defender than Rudy, not to say that Rudy is bad, but George is better.

        Paul George also had a higher Win Score / 48 min and Higher Wins Produced / 48 min than Rudy

        • Jkwasia

          DD is better than Stephenson and its not even close ….maybe when Stephenson has the other team’s scouting report and defense focused to stop him you can make that “Statement” ….. Statement o.0

          • Statement

            I would agree that Derozan is a better offensive player than Stephenson. However, that wasn’t my argument. My argument was that Stephenson was a better (though not by much, perhaps I should have said that initally) player due to him being a better facilitator and rebounder and of course defender.

            • monocled_gentleman_scholar

              I assume that what you’re saying is based on having watched a ton of Pacers basketball (which I admit I haven’t – except when the raps play indiana). Otherwise, I don’t see why you think Stephenson is a better passer (2.9 vs. 2.5) or rebounder (3.9 vs. 3.9!). As far as defense, don’t forget that EVERYONE gets beaten one-on-one in the nba, and that good defense is usually a matter of the whole team making good rotations…

              • http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfence/ Tim W.

                Remember that Stephenson plays more than 7 minutes a game LESS than DeRozan, so comparing stats per game doesn’t quite tell the whole story.

                And Stephenson is a better defender than DeRozan, and it’s not even close. Yes, everyone gets beaten, but some players get beaten a lot easier than others. And Stephenson is also a much better team defender. Watch Indiana a little more, and you’ll see how much better their players are than the Raptors.

                • monocled_gentleman_scholar

                  Stephenson scores around 8pts a game, which means he is expected to pass the ball more, whereas Derozan is expected to score. So you’d expect Stephenson to have more APG.

                • http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfence/ Tim W.

                  No. DeRozan gets the ball A LOT more than Stephenson. His Usage percentage is almost 10% higher than Stephenson. DeRozan should get more assists because he is so much more involved in the offense. He has more chances to get assists, especially because he gets double teamed in the post so much.

              • Statement

                Tim covered it, but just to reiterate, looking at per game stats is not the best indicator out there. It’s like the RBI in baseball, it tell’s you something (though that something is very little), but not much when not put in context.

                • monocled_gentleman_scholar

                  I don’t doubt that you and Tim are right. But what’s the context I’m missing? What are the advanced stats and/or arguments that support what you’re saying? Actually, most of what I’m saying is not based on stats but on what I see on the court. To me, our players are capable of doing the right things no less than Indiana’s, but for some reason (why not youth/time together?) are not doing them consistently.

                • http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfence/ Tim W.

                  You say that the Raptors players are capable of doing things no less than Indiana’s, yet you say the only games of Indiana’s you’ve watched are the one’s against Toronto. There’s a flaw there, as you can probably see.

                  The things about players in the NBA, is it’s not what they have the ability do, but what they have the ability to do consistently that matters. Loads of players have the ability to do more than they do. Bargnani had his infamous 13 games. Jerryd Bayless averaged 22 ppg and 5.6 apg for the month of April, back in 2011.

                  Rudy Gay has the ABILITY to be a top 10 player in the league. He always has. But the big knock on him when he came out of college was he was an underachiever, and that’s followed him throughout his NBA career. The fact that he hasn’t improved since his rookie season tells you a lot about him.

                  DeRozan has a different problem. He works hard, but simply isn’t doesn’t have good defensive instincts, and after four years in the league, it’s highly unlikely he’ll ever become an above average defender.

                • Statement

                  I provided the advanced stats above WRT to Rudy Gay and Paul George.

                  For Stephenson, his win score / 48 is = .115 and his Wins Produced / 48 = .165

                  Derozan’s comparables are 0.075 and 0.054

            • http://www.facebook.com/people/Junior-Maurice/551625103 Junior Maurice

              no way stephenson is better than demar

              • http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfence/ Tim W.

                DeRozan is a better scorer, definitely. But can you name another area in which Stephenson is not better?

                • morgan c

                  Rebounding and post-game (a subset of scoring, but if we are treating scoring period as one category, then fine but scoring should be weighted 2x more than any other category since it’s a hugely varied category).

                • http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfence/ Tim W.

                  Actually, Stephenson grabs a higher percentage of rebounds available than DeRozan, so should be considered a better rebounder. Both are below average for the SG position, though.

                  Yes, DeRozan is a better post scorer than Stephenson, but that really only is valuable if you’re a 1-3 option, and DeRozan hasn’t displayed the efficiency or passing ability out of double teams to warrant being a 1-3 option on a good team.

      • Copywryter

        Far more talent. You’re forgetting Danny Granger? David West? I take Stephenson over Demar as well.

        • monocled_gentleman_scholar

          I’ll give you West, but Amir’s pretty good now. Granger barely played this year.

      • http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfence/ Tim W.

        “MAYBE George tips the scale against Rudy”? I don’t think it’s even close. George is one of the best defensive players in the league. Gay, over the course of the season, is probably a below average defender. George is an excellent three point shooter. Gay is not. George is a better passer than Gay. George has made major improvements every year he’s been in the league. Gay hasn’t improved since his rookie season.

        And Hill really is better than Lowry. He’s better defensively, he’s a more consistent shooter and he’s a better decision maker on the court.

        As for DeRozan vs Stephenson, Stephenson is the type of SG who can be a rotation player on a good team (as he is right now) because he’s got good role players skills. He’s a much better defender than DeRozan and he’s a better outside shooter. Is DeRozan more “talented”? Ya, probably. But the question is how DeRozan fits in on a good team. He’s simply not a good enough scorer to be a first or second option. And he is average or below average at just about everything EXCEPT scoring, and he’s good, but not great at that.

        So Indiana is a much better team than Toronto for a reason. And it’s ain’t just the coaching.

        • monocled_gentleman_scholar

          I grant that Indiana is better than Toronto right now. What I’m saying is that this may be more because of the time Indiana has had to come together (2-3 yrs), not because of the individual quality of the players.

          I can definitely say that you’re wrong about Hill (whom I remember watching on San Antonio and some on the Pacers). Hill looks good because he isn’t expected to score and there are plenty of good scoring options for him to pass to … and he STILL has a low APG. When he was on Houston, Lowry showed what he is capable of. You are judging him based on his performance in Toronto, where everyone admits he has underperformed.

          • http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfence/ Tim W.

            Indiana is better because they’re better. Period. Toronto will definitely improve the more they play together, but their ceiling is lower because of the players they have. All other things being equal, a team built around George is going to be better than a team built around Gay. And George is getting better every year. Gay hasn’t improved since his rookie season. And George is also four years younger.

            Lowry is definitely a better passer and rebounder than Hill. No doubt about it. But Lowry also makes boneheaded decisions pretty consistently, something Hill doesn’t do. And that’s something he’s always done. It’s not just how a player helps you, but how he hurts you. Hill hurts his team a lot less than Lowry.

            • cdub

              maybe you should check gays career stats….and georges while your at it….georges efficiency was on the decline this year and rudy gays best season was year 5 so not sure what your talking about. you just type out a bunch of bs to get your point across that you think george is better…thats fine lets stick to the facts though….shooting 35.7 from 3 compared to 34.3 doesn’t make one guy an excellent 3pt shooter and the other guy a POS….rudy had a bad year lets see what happens next year before writing him off…george shot 41.9 percent this year not exactly something to write home about.

              • http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfence/ Tim W.

                George’s efficiency declined because he became the team’s #1 option. And his True Shooting Percentage was still higher than Gay’s. And I’m not talking simply stats. George has improved as a player every year. Gay hasn’t. And the last two years, Gay has shot 32%, which is below the league average (his 3pt% was actually LOWER last season). George, the last two years, has shot 37%.

                Just out of interest, would you be defending Gay’s stats so much if he wasn’t a Raptor?

  • lino

    see you friday! braaaaaaaaaaaaaaains!

  • ItsAboutFun

    Holy cow, that was hard to listen to. Most of it was very a brief summary of things he said, with no commentary other than chuckles/guffaws.

    To a few actual comments:

    Phil Jackson. We all know what great success the man had as a coach, but has he the skills to be a GM, or has he ever expressed any interest in such a position? To say nothing of he’s 68, with declining health, just got engaged to Jeannie Buss, daughter of Jerry, is deeply ensconced in Southern California where most of his children and grandchildren live. On top of that, he speaks of his other home in Montana as “dangerous”, not because of wild animals, but because of “inclement weather”. What the heck gives anyone the slightest reason to think he’d be interested in taking over management of the Raptors in inclement weather beaten Toronto? IMO, totally unrealistic and a waste of breath talking about. May as well dream about how KD would love Toronto over hicksville OKC.

    DeMar: this “there’s been plenty of talk about moving him” comment. Has there been any talk of this except from fans at RR that don’t appreciate his value and promise? In any case, it’s silliness suggesting that’s a logical move. It’s dam obvious that the organization is delighted with his character, work ethic, continued progress, and commitment to the organization. Short of an unbelievable deal being offered, like the lottery won 1st pick in the 2014 draft, he’s not going anywhere.

    Way too much read into the perceived omission of Lowry from the chatter of the young core. He’d already spoken at length about Lowry and Casey now being on the same page, so no reason to read anything into him not being mentioned in the group with DD, Gay, JV, Amir as the young core. It’s a bloody live presser and one can’t expect that every response covers all the bases. Much ado about nothing.

    Pau Gasol and the triangle: First, was there ever any confirmation from either the Lakers or the Raps that any Bargs for Gasol trade ever took place? It seems to me that it was always only media/fan speculation/rumour. In any case, you mention that Gasol would be the perfect C for the triangle. With JV looking so incredibly promising at C, why would the Raps even contemplate sending him to the bench so they can run the triangle with 33 year old Pau? Makes no sense to me. I understand the desire to move Bargs, but getting Pau to run the triangle doesn’t seem to fit the direction at all.

    • raptors phdsteve

      all good points – but just to add some clarification: It wasnt me who talked about Phil returning in a management role (and more specifically NOT with the Lakers) but instead one of his closest confident Kurt Rambis. So I get all the reasons why he wouldnt come here and oyu make a nice list of why he shouldnt- but he is out there right now shopping himself. thats just a fact. sorry.

      As for Bargs/Gasol, yes, not only do I have it off the record from someone very close to the situation but several other media members in both LA and Toronto close to the team have confirmed with multiple sources that the framework for deal with those 2 as the core was in place and picking up steam.

      As for Gasol and Jonas- adding Gasol would only make Jonas. If the Raps did go Triangle (which I highly doubt they will- their was a lot of irony in that discussion), Jonas would have time to learn to play centre in that offense while being mentored by a great player. If the Raps stick with their traditional offense, Gasol at the 4 would create so much space for Jonas and could play the 5 when Jonas gets in foul trouble or needs a breather next to make in a another very potent and formidable 4/5 combo.

      I dont get why everything has to be an either/or for Raptors fans. and why everything has to be a were not worthy of this guy or that guy thing. All athletes/coaches, etc. only care about 2 things $ and winning. If you pony up the money and offer them a chance of winning anybody will go anywhere.

      Final thing: re: Colangelo’s comments and Lowry. Bryan Colangelo scripts everything. All of his pressers may be live for the fans/media but he has already scripted what he is going to say about each player. He is very media savvy and very calculated. trust me, he has handlers who ensure that the message that goes public is finely tuned and the words chosen are well graphed. The discussion of Lowry/Casey, the refusal to name Im the starting pg for the future of this team, the exclusion of his name form the young core, and the emphasis on Demarr/Gay as the core and on the team loooking to make a deal and move multiple pieces was all part of a well crafted message. I was just connecting the dots for you.

  • Bears

    I don’t normally like to criticize but that was a very poorly done podcast. Waste of my time.

  • raptors phdsteve

    interesting. certainly wont be a popular choice with the fans but the talent level would be high if you get production out of Andrea

  • raptors phdsteve

    Ok Josh, but why? Whats the reason why Nilanka’s suggestion for the starting 5 next year wont work (other than the ever popular chant that Andrea sucks)?

  • Nilanka15

    For the record, I never made any such comment that has now been deleted.

  • Copywryter

    Sure, higher talent, but I doubt you get more wins. High production out of Bargs means fewer touches for Gay and Demar, with a whole lot less rebounding and hustle. Unless you consider ‘high production’ for him to include defensive effort and ability, which has absolutely no precedent in his career.

  • raptors phdsteve

    we know, thats why it was deleted.