The “zoned out” edition:

Ajinca: you think he has POB on his BBM?

Alabi: could really have been a difference maker tonight.  At the Y.

Barbosa: paintings from season seat holders, applause when he entered the game, a scoring touch…all things enjoyed by Leandro in his return to Phoenix. Vince must have been wondering what we did with the portrait of Momma Carter. Solid effort in what must have felt a long time coming this season.

Bargnani: Mr. Personality with 4 boards and enough shot attempts that Patron is going to approach him to be a spokesperson. One thing he has shown he is getting good at: taking the charge.

Bayless: back when he was a young ‘un, he played in these here parts. He came out hard early looking to impress and he did. He kept the Suns honest, he was under control, and he gave Jose a good breather. Then the second half happened where he got a technical and he was as out of control as your son at a Miley Cyrus concert.

Calderon: outperformed a tired Nash and pushed the tempo. Was horrible at coming up with ways to break the Suns zone, though. Attack it, don’t retreat.

Davis: bad first half, but he flipped Bayless’ script and had a gangbuster second half…..except for 2 hustle plays that resulted in turnovers against us. Great intention, bad outcome. They ended up being the nails in our coffins, but rookies play to learn.

DeRozan: 19 points and 8 rebounds ain’t too shabby for the youngster. Only getting to the line once, though, is. Again, attack…don’t shy away from contact. Get to the rim and make it your lover.

Dorsey: blech.

Evans: minimal minutes on a night where he just didn’t have it. No contributions offensively and even where he normally battles hard for every ball coming off the rim, he seemed to be only partly interested.

A. Johnson: keeping his minutes down due to rehabbing his joints (pun intended), he looked better tonight than the last few games. Factor in his 4 fouls in 20 minutes and you know he is getting his second wind.

J. Johnson: just kind of disappeared as the game progressed. Early on it looked like it was going to be his 3rd best game of the season, but he fell off the map faster than Google Buzz

Kleiza: do you think he counts the tiles on his ceiling every night?

Weems: great effort in the middle part of the game. Attacked the rim, looked for the ball, hell almost demanded it, and was looking to turn his late season around. Ended up he didn’t live up to that hope, but his efforts were needed to keep us from falling into a hole earlier than we did.

Wright: rehab? cortisone shot? B12? pictures of Alvin Williams stealing candy from babies?  There has to be a reason…

Driving The Bus: Andrea Bargnani

Under The Bus: Jerryd Bayless

Game Theme:

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  • Daveyboy

    It is really sad when out of the 5 starters today, Bargnani was the best defender by a long shot and he didn’t have a particularly good game either.

    The wing defense in the first half made me want to put a gun in my mouth and pull the trigger.

    • Uh, what? Please feel free to disparage the wing defense, but Bargnani was about as bad on defense as I’ve seen him. I stopped counting how many times he watched as a Piston drove by him to the basket while he literally did nothing. There’s no way in hell that he was the best defender on the Raptors, no matter how bad everyone else was.

      • Dookielove

        i guess having his man pinned doesnt count. if he comes off his man its an easy dump off for a layup or dunk. please stfu tim u dumb cunt. will dumb people please stop? and can our pg’s and wings keep their man in front of them?

        • Nilanka15

          FYI – When bigs step up to help, it’s up to the wings to rotate down to cover the open bigs.

          Please don’t make it seem like Bargnani is doing his best on the defensive end, and attempting to cover everyone else’s mistake, because he’s not. Everyone sucked on defense, Bargnani included. He certainly doesn’t deserve to be defended on this msg board for his defensive performance last night. He’s lazy, plain and simple.

        • Basketball 101: Stop ball.
          Society 101: Don’t insult someone because you disagree with their opinion.

          • Theswirsky

            Tim… its their last resort. Much like on Bargnani on defense… they have nothing left to offer. All thats left is lies, mistruths and insults.

          • Steve

            Who stopped the ball other than AB last night ? If you want the defense and want to be critical of bad defensive play, be man enough and criticize everyone starting from your poster bot, Bayless to DD and …

            • Steve,

              I WAS critical of everyone else’s defense. Did you not read my preceding comment? But my point was that when someone is driving the ball down the lane, your first responsibility is to stop the ball. If he passes the ball to your man, then it’s up to your closest teammate to rotate. That’s basic team defense and is something I will get upset at if someone at pickup ball doesn’t do. Someone playing professionally should know better than that.

              The reason I seemed to have picked on Bargnani in my original comment was because someone actually said he played better defense than any other Raptor, which was very far from the truth. I did say that everyone else played badly, too.

              • Cesay

                Why? Because you act like a stuck-up arrogant snob when you do. You state everything you say as a fact, the “Uh, what” in the first comment is just 1 example that outlined your cockiness and your self-portrayal of being all high and mighty. How about starting all your sentences off with an IMO, because they all look really snarky with a sense of know-it-allism. I know you are going to try to spin what you said just like in all of your posts, but this is just my 2 cents….or make that my opinion.

                • Theswirsky

                  fact – bargnani is a terrible defender

                  fact – opponents fg% has increased directly with an increase in Bargnani’s playing time

                  fact – his own coach takes him out for defensive purposes at the end of games.

                  question – why is it that people can’t stand someone that points out the obvious?

                • fact

                  fact – Bargnani is the 15th best offensive player in all the Nba as per ppg

                • I’m not quite what the “why?” was an answer to, but if you feel I act like a stuck-up arrogant snob, then that’s obviously your right. It doesn’t make a difference to me. I, personally, think it’s a bigger problem when people personally insult others (not just me, by the way) simply because they disagree with their opinion. Do you criticize people for that? Daveyboy certainly didn’t start his comment with IMO, did he? You didn’t seem to have a problem with his comment.

                  I may certainly come across as arrogant, on occasion, but it’s hard not to in the face of ignorance. And it’s also hard not to when people are acting like school children because they can’t seem to form a coherent argument defending their opinion and instead start calling someone names.

                  In the future, if you read my comment, feel free to add “IMO” in front of it, if it makes you feel better.

                • And what’s sad is that if I had simply called him a moron for writing his comment, you probably wouldn’t have responded.

                • Cesay

                  I would’ve responded no matter what. Insulting and personal attacks are obviously wrong, the issue at hand, and not the person, should be attacked. Nothing wrong with a little healthy banter. Just letting you know that when people call you this or that, perhaps more than anyone, there must be a reason for it because you sure get the brunt of insults more than anyone from what I’ve seen. The “Why” was in response to you question you asked of why people insult you, please leave others out of it, don’t be a blame shifter. I’ll also include in this post, my reply to theswirsky, who, oddly enough, seems to bring up Bargnani when I had no mention of him in my post. Yeah, he’s bad and lazy, I agree, totally understand, but come on, it’s starting to sound like a broken record on this site, I don’t think I can go one day on these forums without people vilifying him. If you have a personal vendetta against him, take it out at the ACC, but lets keep conversations civil on what should be a civil board, no need for any impudent cheap shots at the end of your post Tim. Not criticizing you for what you write, but how you write it in my aforementioned post, it may be hard to ignore ignorance, but not impossible. Keep writing what you write. Not trying to play the role of chat-room superhero, just throwing in a thought.

                • Sorry, but you say I act like a “stuck-up arrogant snob” and then accuse me of taking a cheap shot at you?


                  If people feel that I am not acting nicely towards other posters, maybe they (you included) need to find a way of telling me without the personal insults. When people resort to such tactics, I usually take what they say with a grain of salt.

                  And usually the people that take issue with what I have to say are the people who don’t like the message.

                  As for Bargnani, my comments are usually responses to others who bring up Bargnani first. If I sound like a broken record, then what about the people who say things like “Bargnani was the best defender by a long shot”? If people don’t want me to react, then maybe they need to stop giving me something to react to. It was a ridiculous statement and unfortunately, it’s not unusual around here. You want RR to put a moratorium on Bargnani discussions? Great. But when people say things that I feel I completely wrong, I’m going to say something. Call me arrogant, but that’s how I roll.

                • Cesay

                  It’s not a cheap-shot, turns out I was right all along. At least you admitted your arrogant, and I can see the increase in your frustration from post to post.

                  “Well, he started it!” Sorry, but sounds like a little kid to me.

                • Okay. Fair enough. I’m arrogant, but you’re a dick. Of the two, I’d rather be arrogant.

                • Cesay

                  Whatever you say. I’ll leave it at that. Thanks.

                • Jon

                  Lol, the difference is you admitted to being arrogant, and he didn’t admit to anything. Do you speak for him now? Nice try moron lol 😉

                • cesay jr.

                  Well then you can suck my Dick BITCH!!

              • voy

                I dont think you can apply the “stop the ball” rule, which I agree is the number 1 rule in defense, and then basically ignore that no one on the perimeter was able to “stop the ball” but then complain about rotations to stop the perimeter player from getting a layup. So which is more important, stopping the ball or rotating if you’re a post defender? Its not the same thing. Stopping the ball, means stopping the ball. It doesn’t mean allow the perimeter player to repeatedly blow by you and then hope your post defender can cover 2 guys at once.

                And regarding the theory of the perimeter player rotating over to guard the C’s cover once the C leaves his man to protect the basket, I’d like to see exactly how a guy 15 ft away from the basket is gonna rotate over, with any effectiveness, to stop a guy who is parked under the rim.

                The first thing the raps need to do in order to improve their D is stop allowing lay-up after lay-up and at least 50% of that responsibility falls on the perimeter guys (at LEAST 50%) and the rest on the post defenders… not 100% on bargs.

                • voy

                  I guess what I’m trying to say is once the argument is “hey whats the best way to stop the other team from scoring once their guard blows by our perimeter D and gets in the lane 90% of the time?” Its a moot argument as your not gonna win anyway with that as your initial line of defence.

                • hateslosing

                  The idea is not that the guard who got beat picks up the center, the weak side guard rotates in and then the guy who got beats rotates to the man that guard left. That’s why they call it rotating, if it’s done properly everyone ends up guarding someone new.

                  Example: Nash blows bye Jose. Bargs sees the blow bye and steps over to stop Nash, leaving Gortat. James Johnson, who is closest to Bargs at the time (this depends on the system) sees Bargs step over and moves to Gortat, leaving Hill. Jose then runs over and takes Hill. The issue is that you now have several guys in mismatches and if a rotation is late someone is left wide open. That’s why the really good defensive teams like Boston and Chicago are made up of excellent man defenders, it prevents you from getting into these rotation situations where you are at a disadvantage. That said, no team can prevent penetration indefinitely, eventually you are either going to get a blow bye or a solid pick and roll situation and what is critical after that penetration occurs is that someone (usually the center) is there to stop the easy layup and force either a bad shot or a pass. The second rotation is less important because Bargs’ man only comes into the play if Bargs has done his job well and forced a pass.
                  Ideally you’re right, your perimeter D is so good you don’t ever have to help, but that will never happen at the NBA level.

                • voy

                  i’m not saying you can prevent penetration all game long. However, no team gets broken down on the perimeter as much as the raps, not even close.

                  i think its short-sighted to think the team’s defensive woes can be laid at feet on one post defender. I mean, really, we’re gonna give up 4,6,8,10 points in a row all on our perimeter d breaking down and the only solution is “bargs needs to play better help defense?” Is that what Boston or the Lakers would think? Somehow I doubt Pierce or Kobe would be happy with their perimeter D if they got broken down even at half the rate the raps perimeter d breaks down.

                  its just like you said “really good defensive teams…are made up of excellent man defenders” not poor perimeter defenders and one exceptional post defender.

                • Theswirsky

                  “no team gets broken down on the perimeter as much as the raps, not even close.”

                  if you believe that… then the only team you watch is Toronto.

                  “the only solution is “bargs needs to play better help defense?” Is that what Boston or the Lakers would think?”

                  have you ever heard interviews with some of the good defensive players and teams? They ALL talk about helping. They ALL talk about trust. They ALL talk about confidence in their teammates. So yeah… “help” is extrememly important in this league. Not only getting help, but knowing your teammates are going to help AND are going to do it properly.

                • voy

                  ok then, swirsk, name me one team (maybe apart from the worst 3) who get broken down on the perimeter as much as the raps.

                  Hearing them talk is one thing, watching good defensive teams play is another. If you think its Boston or the Lakers’ expectation that their perimeter D will get penetrated at the same rate as the Raps does then what can I tell you…

                • Theswirsky

                  Does it matter what I say? Will you believe me?

                  “hearing them talk is one thing, watching good defensive teams play is another”

                  well then you aren’t watching them. The perimeter gets “broken down” regularily. Who stops Rondo, Paul, Nash, Williams, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Rose, Parker etc etc? What DOES happen is the rest of the team helps. Not stand around and watch.

                  Fans of this team are just so adjusted to no defense and jump shooting, they have a hard time contemplating what actually works and what other teams do. Can’t imagine their opposition doing the same things to other teams… except those other teams actually try to do something about it.

                • voy

                  guys like labron, kobe and wade are one thing another thing is having guys like ty lawson, dj augistine and other comparible perimeter guys go off 10 points above their season average and we make them look like wade and kobe.

                  There is nothing to believe regrding other teams getting their d penetrated as much as the raps do. its simply not true.

                • Theswirsky

                  These are hardly marginal players you are listing.

                  Ty Lawson is an excellent player. Just getting a chance to start now that Billups was traded. Other teams that he has scored 20+ points against (on above 50% shooting).

                  Boston, Spurs, Memphis, Minnesotta, Phoenix, Utah, New Orleans.

                  So they must all have horrible perimeter D to right? Wait… Boston? Thought you indicated they had excellent D?

                  DJ Augustine is averaging 4 pts above his average against Toronto… should I go through the list of teams he’s scored 20+ points against? (18 times total, twice against Toronto)?

                  There is no shortage of guys in this league who can beat their defenders. What is needed to try and keep them at a minimum is help defense. Its what is lacking in Toronto.

                • voy

                  who cares if you can name the teams lawson dropped 20 against this year. He averages, what, 13 a game? There may be the occasion were a young player getting his career started or a marginal perimeter player will get 20 on a good defensive team but its not gonna happen on a regular basis like it does on us.

                  But hey, if you wanna make the argument Lawson and any other perimeter players (save the superstars) are gonna penetrate the lane on good defensive teams with the same frequency they do on us thats up to you. Good luck pushing that view.

                • hateslosing

                  Do you actually watch other teams play? Watch how many times in a game we get to the rim against most other teams. And we are terrible.

                • voy

                  I am stating our perimeter is penetrated at a far more frequent rate than other teams (certainly more than the average and good teams). You want to seriously argue against this statement?

      • Jim

        Prejudice and obsession at its best. AB was simply our best defender last night and you still come out with excuses and try to bash the guy. Your obsession toward AB has caused you to loss all creditability that you may had as a Raptor fan.

        It is sad to see someone wasting away their life in hate and anger like you.

        Get a life.

        • Please explain how Bargnani was the team’s best defender? He allowed Monroe, who he was defending most of the night, to get 20-10 AND his team defense was awful, allowing countless drives literally right by him without reacting at all.

          As for my credibility on discussing basketball, I’d rather lose that than my credibility as a person. Why do people insist on insulting me and others personally when they don’t like our opinions? I’m sorry, but it seems to me you’ve lost much more credibility than I have in this discussion.

          • Eric

            Maybe because people here are sick and tired of your comments about AB’s defense and how everything in Raptor land is AB’s fault and … It is annoying because you are insulting everyone’s intelligence with these non-sense.

            Last year, it was FAQ and his annoying posts here. During the summer, it was Buddah, the PR machine for Amir Johnson pretending to be Raptor fan and now is gone after he secured a huge contract for his man crush.

            This year it is you PAL. I think People are just tired of you and it is too bad that there is no ignore button here.

            • Eric,

              You, Jon, Jim, Cesay, Daveyboy, Steve and all the other morons who apparently don’t know the first goddamn thing about how to play basketball can all kiss my fucking ass. Do I harp on Bargnani’s bad defense? Yes. You want to know why? Because so many fucking morons around here don’t seem to have a fucking clue about what it takes to play winning basketball and are so enamoured with the fact that Bargnani can put the ball in the basket that they don’t seem to notice how atrocious and how much of a liability he is on the other end of the floor.

              Do I hate Bargnani? Not in the least. But his fans who keep claiming he’s “not that bad on defense” I have no patience for whatsoever. Two things I have no patience for is stupidity and ignorance and there’s enough around here to choke a goddamn blue whale. As I’ve said before, if you guys want me to shut up then you guys need to stop saying moronic things. It’s like porn stars to Charlie Sheen. I can’t resist.

              Normally I don’t resort to the name calling, but I feel better after getting that off my chest, and you dickheads deserved it.

              Thank you.

              And by the way.

              Bargnani is an awful defender and needs to be traded.

              • Eric

                Thanks for proving my point Tim. You have sinked to FAQ level.

                • Cesay

                  Well said Eric, can’t agree more, quite funny to see Tim rage worse than a little kid after he dropped his ice-cream on a hot summer day. Then he has the audacity to compare this to pornography…sigh.

                  Hey Tim, you should grow a dick before you call someone else one.

                • Jonathan R.

                  All I have to say about all this is does anyone here think we will ever be a competitive playoff team with bargnani?

                  All this arguing will be pointless next season when bargs isn’t even on our team.

                  Everyone knows bargs is the definition of lazy and a bad defender.

                • fact

                  Oh, yes, and you are Nostradamus

                • Nilanka15

                  Haha, everyone has their tipping points where they say to themselves, “enough is enough”. But the personal insults ALWAYS start in reply an anti-Bargnani comment. Always, always, always, always.

                  I’ve been asking this question for the better part of 2 years now. Why do Bargnani fans take such offence to negative comments surrounding Bargnani (whether they’re accurate comments or not)??? It’s downright creepy.

                • Emran

                  PlZZZZ, what are you talking about ? it is not enough that you want to attack AB on every single post and blame all the team’s shortcomings on him, now you want to attack his fans too !!! That my friend is quite creepy indeed.

                • Nilanka15

                  Thanks for proving my point.

                • Emran

                  What point ? Do you know what point you are even making 😉
                  Nice try 😉 Pal, But you failed.

                • hateslosing

                  Bargs fans resort to insults because there is no evidence to back up what they are saying. They get frustrated by people like you being like,”Bargs sucks at D, he doesn’t rotate….etc”, because you have given them something concrete to look at that, in the end, they are unable to refute. Rather than change their thinking or come up with their own counter arguments, which is exceedingly difficult (seriously,I was a Bargs fan for years and eventually, the whole bigs take time to develop thing wears thin) it’s easier to resort to mind numbing insults.
                  That said, I think the Bargs hate squad has gotten a bit out of control lately. As bad a defender as he is, Bargs doesn’t miss every rotation on D as many seem to suggest and he is actually very good in pick and roll situations where he is required to hedge. He isn’t good by any means, and he is way too soft in the post, but you can say that about a lot of bigs in this league. A good exercise is to count how many times our guys get to the rim with the opposing center out of position compared to how many times Bargs is out of position. You’ll find he is not as bad as some would indicate.

                • Jerry

                  Give me a break. The people who bash Bargs are the most pathetic people on this site, because they will dedicate every roll call to posting about how much they dislike the guy, as oppossed to how effective he was for that particular game. As a casual reader who doesnt ussually post, I have really gotten tired of reading the comments because people like Tim, Nilanka, Swirsky and Yourself all post the same shit. Anyways I’m sure you’ll reply by calling me a Bargs lover, but the thing you guys need to understand, is that despite the high opinion you have of yourselves, no one on this site really gives a shit what any of you have to say.

                • hateslosing

                  Mate, I don’t think you are a “Bargs lover” because you don’t make reasoned arguments in his defense. You are a poster who like to swear and has a problem with people who like to make coherent arguments. Also, please flip through some comments that have been written by me in the past (especially from several months ago) and tell me I only come on here to bash Bargs.

                  A year ago I came on this site quite often and had brief debates (if you can call them that) with some posters who were very outspoken about Bargs being bad. At the time I made several arguments highlighting why they judged Bargs too harshly and outlining why we should give him a chance to develop into a better defender and rebounder. The main argument I had was that when he was drafted, BC said give him 5 years before you judge his game. So I said we should wait until this year to make any decisions about him.
                  What has happened? He has become elite offensively. Some point to his True Shooting Percentage as being low, but that is something that will improve as he gets to the line more (which is already starting). What else has gotten better? Nothing. He plays bad D and is a terrible rebounder and if you disagree with either of those statements I would recommend watching him play more closely. So what do we have five years in? A guy who could be among the best players in the league if he would box out, but there is no indication he ever will. That in itself is not the issue, it’s the fact that he could do it, has done it before for a game here or there but for some reason refuses to put in the effort. That is not the kind of guy I want around for a rebuild.

                  I have never cared if other people on this site read what I say. Forums like this are an opportunity for me to read other peoples’ opinions and give my own, which is therapeutic during a losing season. I apologize if my posting here has offended you, but I have no intention of stopping so I guess you’ll have to either stop reading what I write or try to change my mind using well reasoned arguments. You should try it, come up with an advanced stat (haters love stats) that says Bargs is awesome and post it.

                • Statement

                  No no no,

                  I sinked earlier….I never sank though.

                • Statement

                  also to the 10 people that liked the comment.

                  “Sinked”…really? I understand if you are hating on Tim but don’t hate on the English language.

            • RapthoseLeafs

              Actually … I miss FAQ. 🙂

              • hateslosing

                Yah, what the heck happened to that guy. His posts were always either hilarious or bizarrey insightful…

      • RapthoseLeafs

        I’ll say it in a nice way ………. you’ll never change Tim.

    • knickz

      you must be smoking some serious crack

  • Kells

    Ed Davis had March Madness on the mind. He is excused.

  • 511

    So I’m ranting – more or less – to the missus about how the Raptors lost AGAIN to a team that’s so messed up they wouldn’t even show up for practice a little while back (among other things) … and while I’m going on, she’s starts laughing … and then laughing harder … saying — while she’s laughing her face off — “Now they’re even losing to teams that don’t practice!”

    I hate this team.

  • Borntobewild

    I dont understand your comment about Calderon, how could shooting 5-10 on the night warrent the comment “a night when nothing was falling”? i know its the end of the season and no one cares but at least watch the game before posting these comments.

    • Altraps didn’t notice he was watching a rerun of another game, apparently. I wondered that, too.

  • Statement

    Please no more Bargs…please.

    Derozan better improve his defensive intensity and willingness to rebound HARDCORE in the offseason.

    Ed Davis – good but bulk up in the offseason please.

    Amir – Best all-around player on the team

    Barbosa – Mr. Chucker in the house, how about passing once or twice?

    Weems – pass

    Calderon – starting to suck

    I don’t care enough to talk about the rest.

  • Bendit

    End of season cant come soon enough.

  • Smushmush

    Hey guys, we have a clone in the NBA that is also a joke in the league so don’t feel bad Raptors fans lol. Guess what we are really similar to the Golden State Warriors. Surprise!, Surprise!. How?:-

    1. Both teams don’t play defense and are not even the least interested in thinking of playing it. Their mantra – we try to outscore our opponents every night and if we have a nice offensive game and still lose, we hold our heads high lmao.

    2. Both teams can’t rebound to save their lives and they give offensive rebounds at the worst time possible a la when the opponent team is making their shots for a double whammy or in the clutch lol.

    3. Both teams lose double digit leads like no man’s business lmao and lose it in the worst way possible a la coughing up turnovers when their shots aren’t going in for a double whammy lmao.

    This is the life of a Toronto Raptors or Golden State Warriors fan until both teams start playing defense – losing like there is no tomorrow and losing games despite having a double digit lead to make it even more painful sigh.

    • Nilanka15

      One big difference: the Warriors have legit talent in Curry and Ellis to build around.

      • Smushmush

        but they play no defense – so not a lot of achievement in the NBA without playing defense sigh.

  • raptor suckiness aside, the refs were not allowing any competition tonight

  • Balls of Steel

    Hey, I want to talk about something positive here. Anyone notice how the green unis were actually nice? Seems to fit the players a bit better than the red road ones. Okay, I confess, I hate the greens too. Sigh, I feel sorry for this team. Okay, here’s another positive thing. I really like St. Paddy’s Day even though I’m not Irish, or like Guinness. There, is that a happy moment?

  • Dookielove

    lets look for some positives and some perspective. our young ballers are getting closer to their 10,000 hours, a high draft pick, expirings, cap space, and a gm not afraid to make moves and healthy ballers. i love the raptors and will support them till the end…2 many negative nancys in raptor land.

  • Nilanka15

    The biggest positive to come from last night was the fact that Cleveland won…

    • Michel G

      Unfortunately, they beat Sacramento. I think we’re stuck were we are, fifth from the bottom.

  • Timo in Waterloo

    This team should NEVER wear green uniforms ! I dont care if it is St Patrick’s day… green should be banned from the clubhouse, from the stores, never shown here again…

  • Max Powers

    Being forced to watch his own Ford commercial.. LOL.. That sure is some motivation..

  • golden

    “J. Johnson: every Chicago fan is saying “see? SEE?” and they are right. Picked up 2 quick fouls, kind of redeemed himself in the early second half and then went all slap happy. Finished with 5 fouls and 4 turnovers. Ugly.”


    Is it too late to get that Miami pick back, especially since the pick has moved higher up the board?

    • Bendit

      Maybe if the other players fouled as much we might have detected a pulse on defense. I think we sometimes forget this is a team game especially when assessing/analysing the fouls and turnover #s. I didnt see the game but are you absolutely sure that these commissions of error were not to help his mates or the t/os because they werent in position? I’d give him some more time.

    • But is he worse that what the Raptors would have gotten if they had kept the pick? Doubtful.

      • golden

        Not doubtful at all. JJ is a borderline rotation player on a bad team. Every season there are 5-10 players drafted at position 25 or lower who are at the very least rotation players equal to JJ. Even better would have been to package Miami pick with our 1st rd. pick and/or another young player (e.g. Bayless) and/or expiring salary and/or TPE and move up the board to get Irving or Barnes.

        • You’ve got a far, far better chance of drafting a player who will be out of the league in five years, at 25 or lower, than of finding a rotation player. Is it POSSIBLE to find a rotation player? Sure, but it’s highly unlikely, especially this year when the prospects of finding a rotation player at 15 are starting to look slim. If it was any other year, I’d criticize Colangelo for the deal. But not this year. Besides, James Johnson still has a fair chance at turning out to be a decent player.

          • RapthoseLeafs

            I agree … Johnson has not been here long enough to warrant any kind of fail.

            If the new CBA’s status gets grim, even late lottery teams will struggle to find an upside to this draft. And IMO, I see the Miami pick as a crap shoot. Sure, someone will get lucky with a later pick, but that’s the nature of drafts.

        • Bendit

          Trading up would be similar to the proposition that BC should have traded down in the Bargnani draft to draft eg. Gay. This would of course assume that Colangelo had not already tried to do that nor checked the waters in this draft. Do you really think the Cavs (already with another lottery pick) would trade down for the Raps choices and give up on Irving whom they covet as well? In any case the lottery has not run yet and we could yet win it or move up. I’d be interested in learning about the 5-10 players drafted in the last draft after #25-on who play about 20 mins./game.

          • golden

            Late round picks get their opportunity in year 2, after the guaranteed 1st rounders blow their chance in their rookie years. Just look at 2009 draft, which was also weak (outside of Griffin, Curry & Evans). Players currently picked 25th and later in 2009 draft, playing 20+ minutes are:

            Taj Gibson, Christian Eyenga, Marcus Thornton, Toney Douglas, Chase Budinger, DuJuan Blair, Jodie Meeks.

            There’s your 5-10 rotation players right there.

            Wayne Ellington is at 19 minutes, and Jonas Jerebko would have been 20+ if he didn’t get hurt. That would make it 9. Hard to believe, huh?

            • I certainly wouldn’t say the 2009 draft was weak. It wasn’t top heavy, like many are, but was quite deep. Unfortunately this draft is shaping up to be more like the 2006 draft. Go take a look at who was taken 25 and below. There wasn’t much.

              And what you have to remember is just because there were players available that ended up being half decent, doesn’t mean they would be considered at 25. For every 1 player drafted low who makes a rotation, you get at least 5-10 that don’t.

              Besides, of the players you mentioned, how many would you rather have than Johnson? Gibson and Blair, but the rest aren’t exactly guys you’d regret not taking.

              • RapthoseLeafs

                I’d be inclined to say this draft is worse than 2006. Especially if CBA talks bog down.

                Given a choice of staying one more year in college, or taking a chance that the 2011-12 season will not be cancelled, I’d imagine the latter choice is not much of a choice.

        • This scenario is incredibly unlikely. When you post trade ideas, the first rule is to assume the other GM isn’t a complete moron.

          • golden

            Not following you here, Liston. Swapping picks + assets to move up the board happens all the time. So do moronic moves by GMs. Hedo *cough* for *cough* Barbosa.

  • 511

    I don’t know if it was the lighting in the Detroit arena or the colour setting on my tv but the green uniform seemed to turn Bargs’ particular shade of paste into what I imagine a malaria patient might look like. The boy could use a hard-ass trainer and a bit of sunshine.

    And go Raps. We really need to hammer the shit out of Washington … ping pong balls or no ping pong balls. Imo.

    • Nilanka15

      Here’s hoping Wall puts up a quadruple-double (points, assists, rebounds, steals) on way to a Wizards win.

      • 511

        I understand … but I like the smell of victory on a Friday. Such as it’d be.

      • 511

        After thinking about it, I have to say that no, I actually don’t understand … and because I said otherwise, I have to now correct it by saying so.

        It’s one thing to hope for more ping pong balls and that I get … but to hope that the other team’s rookie lays an embarrassing beat-down on your team while doing so is kind of fucked up to my way of thinking.

        Had to be said.

  • WhatWhat

    None of all this bickering about White Swan would happen if he could rebound or defend worth a damn. Or at least look like he was seriously trying, like Jose is.

  • ezz_bee

    Is this the phoenix comments?

  • Hassjkasb

    Nope, 3/18.

  • Amir playing below the rim.

    Right now his ability to elevate is worse than Bill Laimbeer’s was.

    Amir can’t even get over the rim when he drives to the basket.

    In any case he hit two jumpers and actually took one turn around jump shot that clanked miserably. Next year will be better in that area.

    Tough loss for the Raptors without their leader on the court in the 4th period.

    Raptors need three point shooters big time and they have to learn how to defend against three point shooters.

    The starters are coming together though as a unit. I don’t expect any changes in the starting five next season. We shall see.

    Bargnani played a good game. Most of his shots were within the offense and he took a couple of charges.

    Expect to see DeMar shooting threes next season and maybe even Amir now and again. LOL


    Driving the bus: Bargnani
    Under the bus: Davis and Evans

  • hateslosing

    Man, I was reading this thread and was all like “man this sounds so familiar”…Then everyone was talking about Detroit…I’m sad now.

    • 511

      Confused me for a moment, too … then I saw the post-dates. If intentional, it’s kind of funny. If it’s not … it’s still kind of funny.

  • munniec

    I didn’t watch the game, but how can you be so down on Andrea taking so many shots while he took just 2 more than derozan (basically shot the shame percentage) and had five more free throw attempts? Now again I didn’t watch the game, but isn’t that a bit biased?

  • voy

    he’s supposed to get 27 points on 5 shots or fewer.

    • Nilanka15

      0 pts on 0 shots playing 0 minutes would probably be best.

      4 rebounds in 39 minutes, which was the lowest total of any Raptor starter (i.e. the same total as Calderon…our POINT GUARD). It takes a lot of skill to avoid the ball with such passion…unless of course, there’s a chance of scoring.

      Yay points!!! Put Bargnani in the hall of fame!!!

      • AnthonyF

        Yup he was responsible for all 114 points Phoenix scored. He is all that is bad about basketball and Toronto. Could part of the reason his D is bad is that overall Tornoto is bad and not every single thing wrong with Toronto is his fault. So frickin old….. Yay defense…..

        • Nilanka15

          Bargnani is 100% responsible for all things wrong in the world, not just the state of basketball in Toronto. I’m talking about rogue nuclear weapons, global warming, rising crime rates, cancer, and the HST.

          As soon as Bargnani is traded, all of society’s ails will be cured. Yes, he is that awful of a player.

          • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!!

            It’s not that serious- get a grip. But as soon as he’s gone things will be alot beter in the TDot as far as Raptor basketball goes.

            Both Andrea and Jose are the longest tenured Raptors and are the defacto leaders of this facetious balderdash called Raptor basketball under BC, Gheradini & Jay.

            It’s basketball not reboundball. Sometimes I get lazy.

    • Statement

      Did you know,

      Andrea Bargnani has 16 brothers, all of which post on this message board!

      The more you know….

  • voy

    Nilanka, what of significance would have happened if Andrea sat out yesterday, then? I mean, I hear you complain about giving andrea 39 minutes, on this team, is too many but you dont offer any alternatives. Whats the solution? If you have an opinion that could fast-track this team on its path to success then I’d love to hear it.

    How does 0 pts on 0 shots playing 0 minutes to anything to improve the team… unless you want to see a 10 win season.

    • Nilanka15

      My comment was primarily tongue-in-cheek.

      But to answer you question, my suggestion(s) to help this franchise would be to play the kids heavy minutes to finish off this season. This accomplishes 3 things. One, we provide some much-needed experience to the players who are lacking it (i.e. DeRozan, Bayless, Davis, J.Johnson). Two, it provides management with a better guage of what these guys bring to the table so a decision on their futures in Toronto can be made this summer with more confidence. And three, it ensures we lose a lot of games which strengthens our draft position.

      Fast forward to the summer, we attempt to shed the fat. You know my thoughts on Bargnani’s ability to positively contribute to this team, so we attempt to find a suitable taker as long as we receive value in return. I can’t specifically say what players would warrant a fair trade, but it’s my opinion that the Raptors cannot achieve a level of competitiveness with Bargnani as a primary piece, whether it’s off the bench, as a power forward, or small forward. His deficiencies are just too large to mask.

      I’ve been back and forth as to whether Calderon should suffer the same fate as my suggestion for Bargnani. But lately, I’ve been leaning more towards keeping him as a mentor (assuming we draft a PG this summer). His defense is awful, but his ability to play the position out of a textbook would be a great asset to a young player learning the pro game, while being limited to 20 mpg. Plus his large contract makes trading him difficult.

      Continuing in shedding the fat, I don’t see any purpose for Barbosa or Kleiza going forward. They both seem better suited playing for a contender providing the much needed “spark” off the bench. Barbosa should draw some interest next season, especially since he’s in a contract year. But looks like we’ll be stuck with Kleiza because of his injury.

      Also, Triano needs to relieved of his duty. I like his ability to relate to the players, and I respect his loyalty to the city, but his isn’t the disciplinarian required to make us a respectable, tough-minded, hard-nosed, defensive ball club. I would have no problem keeping him on as an assistant…but who knows if he’d accept a demotion.

      In terms of player acquisitions, I like personalities like Battier. He knows his limitations, is a great defender, is a locker-room leader, and is a self-starter (doesn’t need to be pushed/motivated by coaches). Someone like him could have a great effect on the rest of our roster, similar to the effect Parker and Garbo had on our 2006-07 roster.

      If my suggestions seem somewhat vague, that’s because they are. With too many unknowns between now and October (Colangelo’s status, the 2011 draft, pre and post draft trades, free agent signings, the use of the TPE, etc.), it’s impossible to propose a specific, fail-safe plan that will make this team competitive again. But as long as we take an intelligent approach to rebuilding, I see a bright future for the Raptors…as long as Colangelo doesn’t attempt to patch a 40-win team together with a 2nd round ceiling. If extended, I sincerely hope Colangelo has the patience for a proper rebuild.

      • voy

        I agree with alot of what you say but sentiments like the raps can’t achieve a level of competitiveness with Andrea on the team I cant wrap my head around as we have no idea who will be on the team in 2-3 years time when, hopefully, we have enough pieces to compete. This being said, I’m not against trading anyone other than Demar and ED as long as we get back a team need we dont currenlty have while not creating another team need with the departing player.

        I’d love to see Andrea’s minutes shaved a bit as well. Why play a dude 40 minutes a game in a nothing year when we know basically what he’s gonna give us. Unfortunatley there are no other options unless you want to see the league smallest frontcourt in ED and Amir.

      • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!!

        Put the kool aid down as there is no rebuild going that’s just an excuse to cover BC, Gheradini & Jay’s asses as the loses pile up- just another BC pr (public relations) media spin in the wind.

        If it’s a rebuild why are Barg’s & Jose playing still major minutes a night?

        Why is Bayless not starting?

        Why is Ajinca (another soft jump shooting Euro big man that BC acquired) not playing in the rotation?

        Why is JWright glued to the bench?

        Why is Ed not getting major minutes- he hasn’t hit the rookie wall ie Ed didn’t get into the game until the 2ndQ in Phoenix, he has hit the Jay aka Company Man wall.

        Why is Amir still playing while clearly injured?

        Because BC via Jay is trying to eek out late season wins at the expense of Ed’s development in order to try and save his (their) job- image over reality.

        On the pre game show Jack said that this game would be the defining moment of where these players, this team is currently.

        Fyi- it’s not a true rebuild until BC, Gheradini, Jay, Jim Kelly, Matt Devlin, Jack Armstrong, Calderon & Bargnani are removed from the Raptors organization. it’s time for a new Raptor vision with new minds, voices & structure in charge of moving foward in the future.

  • SteveB

    What would you people write, comment or argue about if there was not AB on the team?

    • dribbles

      We’d criticize Amir if he was still getting into stupid foul trouble, Jose’s bad D, Bayless’ bad decision making, DeMar’s bad D, the need for Ed to develop some go-to offensive moves, we’d point out progress in various players’ games, etc. etc.

      For some basketball fans, it’s hard on the eyes to watch a 7-footer who is the team’s highest paid player consistently grab under 5 rebounds, play shit defence and give a shit effort on too many nights. This isn’t rocket science. Andrea receives the most criticism because right now he’s the centrepiece of the team and he’s paid more than anyone else. He’s also been in the league long enough that seeing no improvements in slightly important areas of the game kind of bothers people. It’s because of players like him that guys like Evans and Oakley are treated like gods amongst Raps fans. I hope he’s traded so I don’t have to care about him anymore.

    • RapsM

      We’d rip the next guy who represents everything wrong with the Raptors. Inconsistancy, too focused on scoring (NO DEFENCE), plays bad when it counts…etc. Sometimes I think air could play better defence because at least it would not give up three point plays every other time.

  • Jonathan R.


  • Theswirsky

    To Voy….

    so its ok when you use a small sample size (one game), but it proves nothing when I do it (7 games)? Huh… sounds about right from a Barg’s boy.

  • voy

    regarding the lawson comment? Dude, the point I am making is more perimeter stiffs go off on us than go off on the vast majority of other teams, especially good defensive teams. this is the argument. I’m not using Lawson’s one game as a sample size. Just as I know you are not using the 7 games as a sample size to prove that Lawson can drop 20 and penetrate the lane with the same frequency on good teams as he does on us. These are examples.

    Like I said, teams gain the lane on us at a way higher frequency than they do on the vast majority of other teams, especially the good ones. This is my argument. If you wanna disagree you are basically saying our perimeter d is just as good as other teams. Its very simple, chaci.

    • hateslosing

      Hey, this is in reply to your comment at the top, there is no room up there now. I think you are right that we get broken down more often than a lot of teams, but that is still no excuse for not playing good help D. Chicago is a great example as they have one of the best on point defenders in the game in Rose, but they still play some of the best help D in the league. It’s the combination of the two that makes them an elite defensive team.

  • Statement

    In B.C. Speak:

    Arguably, the greatest talent that arguably ever lived is arguably Andrea Bargnani…arguably.

    Would I say that he is better than Jordan…arguably yes I would.

    Would I say he should be the Liberal party leader…arguably yes, I would.

    ‘Takes a sip from a bottle of water’

    Alright I have to leave because otherwise I’ll get into an argument with my wife…arguably.