The Final Count

With the regular season over, we present the overall data for the year in this Statophile. Yes, most of the metrics are a bit ugly, but were expectations all that much higher?

Nothing overly surprising: defense was the major issue for losses this year. Wonder if this guy may have helped? Man games missed due to the mid season trades as well as significant injuries certainly doesn’t help build a cohesive unit on defense. And perhaps a center that helped on D or blocked a shot (57th out of 64, really?!). Finally, having the league second youngest roster means a step learning curve on defense.

The Four Factors

The Raptors were in the middle of the pack in both turnover rate differential and offensive rebound rate differential. So overall, these two were not major factors, although if it wasn’t for Evans’ and Johnson’s offensive rebound prowess, ORR would have been (hello Bargnani defensive rebounds). The Raptors committed way too many fouls (with Dorsey, Johnson, Davis and Evans being the main culprits). Without the PG and wings slowing their men down and little to no help defense from your Center, this is not a surprise. The other issue was effective field goal differential; the biggest problem being defensive three point FG% – where the Raptors ranked 28th in the league with eFG% 56.4%.

The Roster

Our inaugural “Statophile MVP” is Amir Johnson. Yes, most of you realize that I may be am biased, but it was advanced statistics that made me a fan of his last year. Many were “surprised” at many of his performances this year. However, advanced statistics helped identify him as a potentially effective player over the last several years. His 1.08 points per possession (PPP) this year ranks him 17th in the league in this category. He’s 22nd in the league in blocks per game. He also leads the team is most advanced measures, even despite playing injured for a portion of the year. Perhaps his contract may be good value after all.

Our “Worst Teammate of the Year” award goes to Sonny Weems. His True Shooting Percentage was 67th out of 79 qualified shooting guards. Looking up his points per possession (PPP) data at Synergy Sports, we find he is ranked 340 at 0.85 per. This year Mr. Weems took 5 field goal attempts for every one he assisted on.

Our productive rook (yeah, Solomon Alabi wasn’t really considered, so no need for an “award”): Ed Davis Despite not being projected to be in the ROY mix, Mr. Davis showed up in several top 5 lists at the end of the year. He’s proving to be one of the steals of the draft when you look at his rookie rankings over at Basketball Prospectus (where he’s ranked 5th, just behind John Wall) or the Wages of Wins blog (also ranked 5th, again just behind Wall).

The “Advanced-Statistics-Told-You-For-Years-He-Should-Be-Traded-And-Now-Every-Reporter-Is-Writing-About-It” Award goes to Andrea Bargnani, who still pretends its the position he plays that makes a difference. (Seriously, I mean, seriously – we’ll call you a 4, great. Which means we need you to post up more and take less threes. And 4s have to rebound to. And help on defense. So…. your statistics will improve “at the 4”?! No. Mr. Bargnani, you have some qualities of a 3, 4 and 5 on offence and largely fit the 5 on defense. It’s not the position we put you in that’s the problem.). Andrea Bargnani was ranked dead last out of 59 Centers for rebound rate. Whoops, I forgot he was a 4. Okay, he would rank 76th of our 80 of Power Forwards. Assist ratio? 42nd among Centers (62nd among PFs). Blocks per 48 minutes? 78th out of 85. The opponents he guarded had a Player Efficiency Rating (PER) of 21.1 against him – almost 5 points higher than Bargnani’s 16.2. The good news? His contract isn’t too bad for a big and he has enough diversity on offense to be attractive to several teams. He may fit quite well with a team with a penetrating PG and/or a big defensive center. The other good news? The media and many fans have finally accepted the idea of moving Bargnani, making it much easier for Bryan Colangelo to do so without significant negative repercussions.

Questions? Email me: [email protected] or find me on Twitter.

  • Guest

    Tom, by any metric you have done great work this year. Thank you.


  • WhatWhat

    But don’t you know that Amir only has one postup move? You need to stop worshipping these scrubs that rely so much on hustle!


    • BCistheMan

      One post Move !! When did he develop that move ? Was it after the season was over because I can not even recall one good post move by Amir all season long but again, His ankle was hurt so that should answer it all.

      • Pesterm1

        he has like 2or 3 game winners with post up moves this year you fools. one in chicago and i dont recal they others

      • Alex Taylor

        Yeah, his move is that hook shot that he releases at his shoulder – hey, it goes in…

    • Tim W.

      Bill Laimbeer and Dennis Rodman didn’t even have one post up move. Basically, who cares? If a players finds a way to be effective and help his team win, then that’s the type of guy you should have on your team. I don’t get this obsession with how many moves a guy has. Bottom line, can he fill a role on a contender and help them win? Amir can. And that’s all that matter. And the fact is the Raptors have so few guys you can say that about that we SHOULD laud the guys who do.

  • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

    Great read.

    I know that the Bucks had more man missed games than us this season- do you know where the 2010-11 Rap’s rank in the NBA for that particular?

    Poli-Sci 101 stats are just another way to

  • BCistheMan

    “es, most of the metrics are a bit ugly, but were expectations all that much higher?”

    Well, Looking at Raptor republic poll and other threads in the forum, the expectations were indeed much higher than 22 win.

    There were only few here who predicted a season with less than 25 wins which even then, Raptors came short.

    By the way, what was your prediction for the Number of Wins this season ? If I remember correctly, you had around 30 win !!

    • Tom Liston

      I believe I did say “around 30”. Considering the trades and games missed due to injury to keys members (Evans missing 52 games, Barbosa missing 24 etc), I felt it wasn’t a surprise they’d be less competitive.

  • BCistheMan

    “Yes, most of you realize that I may be am biased, but it was advanced statistics that made me a fan of his last year.”

    You may be biased !! Correction: You are biased. It is known fact that you can manipulate data and choose what to represent and what to NOT to prove your point and sell your message.

    The strange case of Amir Johnson and your hard work to present him and his contract as a solid contributer to the team goes as far as making Amir with 6.2 rebound per game a rebounding machine and beat while AB with 5.0 rebound a disaster !!

    1.2 rebound !! I say this is NOT stats, but Pure Magic 😉

    • WhatWhat

      Using TRB%, Bargnani is the 3rd worst rebounding 7 footer EVER (that have logged more than 999 minutes):

      And of those 7 footers, he had the 6th worst season:

      Amir plays 10 less minutes per game than White Swan (and it’s not because he can’t stop fouling btw, there’s this guy named Ed Davis…), yet grabs 1 more rebound. That’s in in actuality a 20% difference b/t them using the raw numbers. Per 36, Amir gets 9 boards, Bargnani stays the same…because he’s already playing 35 minutes.

      Rebounding is very important. Can’t you recall the many times that the team has been unable to secure possession after getting a stop in the clutch.

      If Deng didn’t get that rebound of that missed FT, the Bulls would’ve lost that season game to the Heat.

      Idk why I’m typing all of this though, it’ll just be dismissed because it makes Bargnani look bad. Amir’s just a role player/fringe starter. He does his job very efficiently, regardless of how skilled he is or not.

      • BCistheMan

        Amir has 10 minutes less than AB, because he can not stay on the floor ( whose fault is that). Jay was willing to give as much as time he needed but his lack of discipline, times and times again has reduced his minutes and took away from the team.

        Now, as far as rebound is important and … All this stat and all these articles from Liston all season long to make Amir the Saviour of the Raptors, most positive impact, the hustle man on the board, the machines and …. for 1.2 rebound difference !!!

        Take a second and think about it: 1.2 ….. 1.2

        All that stats and all that noise is reduced to ONLY 1.3 rebound :)

        • Tom Liston

          You caught me – here I was only concerned about RPG and didn’t give credit Bargnani’s superb defense (blocks etc), passing, shooting efficiency, desire to play through injury and team leading effort. Reality is we should only rate players by points per game as if you don’t score, you cannot win.

          • BCistheMan

            “desire to play through injury ”

            I am trying really hard to not laugh here. This is when I know you are reaching the bottom of your bags of statistical tricks when you have to come out and say the above statement.

            ummm, lets see when the above happened !!! Amir playing through his ankle injury during the last few games of the season, when getting exposed on ever possession and it got so bad the armstrong even said that if you are not 100% you should not be on the court and be a liability for your team !!

            Yes, you are right. Lets add that to the 1.2 rebound.

            Passing ability , Really !! This is some stat for you from

            AB : 1.8 APG while Amir is 1.1 APG !! I am not statistical guru but I think 1.8 > 1.1 , am I right ?? 😉

          • cesco

            Tom , have you ever asked yourself the question : is it better to look good on advance metrics or to know that the team win more games percentage wise when you are playing than when you are not playing . The team did not finish at the bottom of the heap (and become the laughing stock of the media south of the border) thanks mainly to Andrea scoring as simple as that.

            • Tom Liston

              Andrea Bargnani’s offense is negated by his lack of rebounding and defense. As I mentioned, opposing centers play very well against him:

              If you talking about the Raptors record without Bargnani in the lineup, I’d have to adjust for strength of opponent, who else was injured for the Raptors, etc. I have not done this yet.

              • cesco

                With Andrea in the lineup they won 9 out of 66 games against teams that made the playoffs for a percentage of .136 . The team won 2 out of 16 games without Andrea and against teams that made the playoffs for a percentage of .125 . Those are good enough stats for me . The 3 advanced stats WP , WP/48 and Adj+/- were Andrea has the worse stats on the team are pure non sense as shows that there are several players who have a worse +/- per minute played than Andrea and that is a real stat that cannot be manipulated by the spin doctors.

                • BCistheMan

                  “With Andrea in the lineup they won 9 out of 66 games against teams that made the playoffs for a percentage of .136 . The team won 2 out of 16 games without Andrea and against teams that made the playoffs for a percentage of .125 . Those are good enough stats for me . ”

                  In less than five lines, you debunked all articles by Liston all season long. It is great to sanity still exist among Raptor fans.

                  Job well done Sir.

                • Webcrawler89

                  .136 and .125 are minute, minute differences. And yeah, several players have worse stats, which mean’s they’re not that effective. plain and simple, shouldn’t it be?

                • Statement

                  Just let go, Bargs fans.


                  Talk about blinders

                • Mos_jef

                  You’re trying to say that when Andrea is out of the lineup, the team performance doesn’t change. Shouldn’t that mean he’s a waste of $9million dollars? It’s actually worse because the team trained and practices with Andrea as the starting C, so the team isn’t as prepared when they start a different lineup. Yet, there’s only a minute difference.
                  When Dirk was out, the Mavs were 2-7. That’s value to a team.

                • cesco

                  The team won 19 out of 66 games with Andrea , that translates to 23.5 games won per 82 games . The team won 3 of 16 without Andrea that translates to 15.3 games won over 82 games .
                  My argument is about the worthiness of those advance stats where Andrea is the worst on the team . If he is the WORST on the team with those WP and Adj+/- stats, HOW COME THEY WIN MORE WITH HIM IN THE LINEUP THAN WITHOUT HIM . I am arguing the worthiness of those stats , nothing else .

                • Tim W.

                  As I said, because most of the games Bargnani missed Evans, Barbosa and Calderon also missed. And the average winning percentage of the opponent in games Bargnani missed was 60%. Enough with this record business. It’s not a valid argument because the numbers are so incredibly flawed. Or are you suggesting Reggie Evans is the best player on the team, because the record with him is even better than Bargnani’s.

                • Tim W.

                  Oh, god, can we get over this record with and without Bargnani, please? It’s flawed beyond belief! The majority of the games he missed they were also without Reggie Evans, Barbosa and Calderon. And the difference isn’t even that great. One less win with Bargnani and one more without and the percentage is the same. That’s hardly a valid argument.

        • Tim W.

          The thing about Amir and Bargnani is that despite playing 10 minutes less, Amir bested Bargnani in just about every single category except for points. What does it say that Amir at 25 mpg helps your team win more than Bargnani at 35 mpg. Perhaps the problem is that Triano simply played Bargnani far too much.

      • Guest

        While Bargnani does have a poor individual rebounding rate, the team is a better defensive rebounding team with him on the floor than with him off of it.

        Player DReb Rate On DReb Rate Off DReb Rate Net
        Dorsey, Joey 67.9% 65.4% 2.58%
        Kleiza, Linas 67.5% 65.1% 2.44%
        Weems, Sonny 66.9% 65.1% 1.80%
        Bargnani, Andrea 66.3% 64.9% 1.37%
        Evans, Reggie 66.0% 65.6% 0.37%
        Calderon, Jose 65.8% 65.5% 0.30%
        Johnson, Amir 65.7% 65.6% 0.11%
        Wright, Julian 65.7% 65.7% 0.05%
        Alabi, Solomon 65.6% 65.7% -0.12%
        Derozan, DeMar 65.5% 66.0% -0.50%
        Johnson, James 64.0% 66.4% -2.27%
        Barbosa, Leandro 64.2% 66.5% -2.33%
        Ajinca, Alexis 64.1% 66.5% -2.37%
        Davis, Ed 64.3% 66.7% -2.40%
        Bayless, Jerryd 64.4% 66.8% -2.51%

        He does very poorly on the Offensive Rebound Rate. On/Off

        All numbers taken

  • hateslosing

    Statophile was my favorite article on the site this season. Thanks for a the hard work Mr. Liston!

    Forgetting Bargnani for a moment, is anyone else really hoping they don’t bring Weems back? The guy is terrible, he showed some improvement as a shooter, but as this article mentions, his TSP is still awful. I can deal with a guy who takes and misses good shots on offense: Calderon, for example, misses a lot of jumpers but he’s usually wide open and knows it’s a shot he can make. Sonny jacks up shots he has no business taking and fails to help his team mates at all. If BC brings him back, I will be furious.

    • Nilanka15

      Weems is brutal. The only way he’s back next season is if management decides it’s best to keep him around for DeRozan’s sake (since they’re best friends).

  • Bob

    Darn, I was really hoping Alabi won the Raptors rokkie of the year

  • RapthoseLeafs

    Hate to say it Tom, but as much as the bandwagon has Bargs gone, the same will be true for Amir. Maybe not at the beginning of the season, but soon enough. There are only so many minutes available, and Ed’s numbers need to increase. Which means AJ’s will have to drop. No way Davis suffers minutes because of Amir. And no way AJ is okay with losing 5 minutes off his current 25.7 minute average.

    That being said, Amir’s value is at its’ peak (for us) – ideal for trading – especially if his health becomes an issue. Johnson is a hard hustling guy with a very reasonable contract. Perfect for a Contender needing a 3rd or 4th Big off the Bench.

    Assuming Andrea is traded, I’d suspect Raptors will bring on 2 Centres for next season … a Starter (and main defensive Centre) – if they can find one [GOOD LUCK], as well as a back-up.

    [ “Nothing overly surprising: defense was the major issue for losses this year. Wonder if this guy (Chandler) may have helped? “]

    I’m kinda curious (besides your enthusiastic jump onto the bandwagon), that you didn’t make a statistical correlation to the above statement. Then again, stats are more often than not, a means to reaffirm one’s position.

    I did some statistical sampling in respect to Dallas – who’ve had a much better defensive core outside of the Centre position (ie. wings & guards who can defend).

    Dirk played 3.1 less minutes this year, on top of his 9 missed games (vs 1 the previous season). That was his lowest minute avg amongst the last 3 years. His rebounding rate was 7.0 – another low. In fact, he played slightly less minutes than Andrea did (a situation I believe contributed to AB’s statistical drop this year – along with having a greater focus – via no Bosh). Even with FT’s, Dirk only had .9 more attempts. At 6.2 FTA per game, it was Nowitzki’s lowest in 3 years as well. Dirk also took the less shots this year (amongst the last 3). Is this not worthy of dissemination.

    Andrea’s efg% was greater than Dirk’s in years 2008-09 as well as 2009-10. The change came this year though, where Dirk made a very large jump (+ .049), while Bargs dropped by .044 from his previous season. That’s a .093 swing.

    With Chandler in the fold, Nowitzki didn’t need to get as many rebounds, or blocks. The benefit of this, was that his shooting accuracy made a significant jump. That was because a true Centre played next to him. Dallas – despite 8 more missed games from Dirk – had a better record than the previous season. That includes rebounding differential (from negative to positive), and better efficiency including against 500+ teams.

    When you “relinquished” the PF argument, and stated Andrea’s numbers didn’t change much (vs Centre), you stepped outside the confines of true statistical reporting. You can’t make a comparison when the data becomes like apple and oranges. Dirk didn’t have to defend at the Centre position (at times maybe), while Andrea did (for the most part). They may have played the PF position on the offensive side, but that still doesn’t make your argument consistent. Dirk was a PF all the time (with exceptions of course).

    And yes, Andrea was moved around at times, such that he didn’t get exclusively matched up to the opposing Centre. I’d be inclined to think that just added to AB’s problems, as his role on the defensive side didn’t have a functional mandate. Add to the fact that our perimeter defense was vastly inferior to Dallas, and the comparisons get even more off-side. In fact, a Chandler on a Raptor team would not have been as successful as he’s become with Mavericks. Dwight Howard – for that matter – would’ve had a harder time with us. Of course, that doesn’t mean I’d like to turn back the clock and make that trade work. Raptors are in rebuild mode, and other pieces need to come along to have made this work as efficiently as Dallas has made it work.

    To clarify something first – Andrea is not a Dirk. A lighter version with similarities that even Cuban & gang saw (when they chased Chandler). Hell, Nowitzki would’ve been killed on our team, had he been pressed into being our Centre. For the lighter version we have, our cost is half – leaving plenty of room to inject a Chandler into the fold. Fact is, we could have Tyson & Andrea, for the price of a Dirk. And in the arena of a new CBA (and possible clamp onto luxury tax craziness), it might be to our advantage – as we can spend more elsewhere.

    The problem I see with how Bargnani is defined, and where we will make a big mistake (seeing him go), is that he has not been utilized properly or effectively. Too many minutes. Expected to be a franchise player, even though everyone acknowledges as such. Expected to be a MAX like guy, on a half-Max budget. A #1 overall draft pick, who doesn’t command a #1 overall (and typical) max contract. Mostly – as we’ll all admit – not a true #1 overall type.

    Point is, for 8.5 million dollars (this season), he was not a bad value for an offensive quality player – taking into account that I’m comparing him to non-rookie contracts. But because we expected so much more, we conclude he’s a bust. And that it’s time to ship him out.

    In the end, Andrea was right when he said his natural position was PF. Trouble was, with Bosh as the Guy who would lead us to the Promised Land (cough cough), AB was formed in a way that Dallas has defined differently. And to great success (even if it is Dirk).

    • RapthoseLeafs

      [ “Expected to be a franchise player, even though everyone acknowledges as such. “]

      That should read: “… even though everyone acknowledges he isn’t [a franchise player] …. ”

      • Statement

        Just let go RapthoseLeafs,

        How can you keep going with this? Seriously dude you’re like the anti-Nilanka.

        Man I’ll be glad when Bargs goes, just so that we don’t have to post anymore about what is basically a very mediocre player.

        Gallinari had a good game today, if he was on the Raps, would we be gushing and gushing about the dude?

        Seriously, no more please.

  • Webcrawler89

    Anyone else think “BCistheMan” sounds like a crazy, teabagging, republican Raptors fan?

    People, stats are stats. There’s a reason so much money is put into this field, because, when it works, it works extremely accurately. I mean, all these adjusted numbers are telling me what I already can instinctually tell from watching a game, that Bargnani does not put any effort into defense whatsoever, and that, we’ll build a lead with him on the bench, then lose it whenever he comes back.

    • RapthoseLeafs

      Yes … stats are stats.
      But while one poll “expert” will tell you that Harper will garnish the most votes and win, another will state that most Canadians are against Harper. Prorogue anyone?

      Stats can be f*@ked with, if one feels up to it. Any Statistician can manipulate your perspective on a topic, simply by “interpreting” a result, and backing it up with necessary data – even when it’s a blatant lie.

      >> Arizona Senator Jon Kyl
      “If you want an abortion, you go to Planned Parenthood. And that’s well over 90 percent of what Planned Parenthood does.” [Actual number is 3% – The Tea-Baggers wanted to cut Planned Parenthood out of the U.S. budget]

      I took a little time to analyze some data on 82 games, and found a slightly odd stat come about.

      In Net Points per 100 possession, Dirk went from +10.6 to a +16.7 (in 2010-11). Andrea went from a -7.4 to a -2.6, and while negatives are not a great thing, it does offer the possibility that a Defensive Centre could bring Bargs into a positive zone. And with a little less minutes (~ 30), plus being healthy, there’s no reason why he can’t excel.

      The problem with comparative analysis, is that stats are as good as the effort put into them. Defining a rank subject to a player’s player position, or quantitative analysis based on set criteria, is a tendency Statisticians make to fit a model. The more one takes into account statistical anomalies, the more one tries to fit them in. To do otherwise, makes the effort wieldly. And that “rush” to simplification, can have the ability to distort a true perspective.

      • Guest

        There’s a huge difference between John Kyl’s “statistics” and the metrics Liston is using. THEY ACTUALLY EXIST. Kyl made up shit to prove a point. Liston is providing evidence for a point that most sighted people can already see.

        • RapthoseLeafs

          Kyl was an extreme example. But if it wasn’t for the news calling him out, quite a few Americans would believe something like this. No different than when they believed Rick Mercer, when he told some Governor about the new igloo in Ottawa, that would be part of the Parliamentary buildings.

          Anyways – just trying to illustrate how far out there it can get – not implying Tom was in left field. Only that he’s not looking at the bigger picture. And I’m not sure whether it’s because he doesn’t want to.

          Perspectives have become a symptom of this hate for Bargnani – that has jumped quite a few levels in its’ intensity.

          • Webcrawler89

            You can’t use the example of someone fudging numbers to say stats itself doesn’t work. Democracy doesn’t work when you don’t play by the rules either, does that mean we shouldn’t trust it?

            Right now, you guys are more so attacking the credibility of Liston’s word as opposed to the stat’s that he’s used.

            While I agree that perhaps a true defensive centre would help Bargs out by moving him to PF, it doesn’t change that he doesn’t do what a good PF is supposed to do, and that means either trading Amir or Davis, and personally, I don’t agree with that, because both have proven themselves valuable as role players, possibly even on a contending team. We spent years trying to build around bosh, let’s not repeat the same mistake with Bargnani. We’ve tried 5 years now to integrate him somehow, let’s not waste another few years.

            • mac

              Your right we spent years trying to build around Bosh Shit we even brought in his old college roomy to keep him happy along with all the other pieces we brought in. Now how many pieces were brought in to help Bargs ZERO. But he is expected to not only make up for CB4 offense but also become some dominent defensive big

              • Webcrawler89

                And why does that seem so impossible? In the Playoffs Dirk Nowitzki has a career avg of 25 and 10. Even in his 3rd season he averaged 23 and 9. Our boy can’t even average 7 rebounds a game.

                Heck, Andrew Bogut isn’t even a dynamic scorer, but you can count on him to anchor your defense. That’s the job of true C/PF. You guys try to pass of Bargs as some kind Amar’e type who can only score, but even Amar’e has averaged more rebounds throughout his whole career, barring 1 injured year. So tell me, we’ve given Bargnani 5 years to increase his rebounding numbers, 5 years, and he still can’t even go beyond the 7 rebound mark. His shooting percentages have decreased, he’s taken lazy shots, he showed himself to be an ineffective leader in the 3OT game against the Nets, and we still want him to be our Franchise player?

                Are you insane? Are you also for lowering taxes for the rich, or privatizing health care or creating a two-tiered system? because if so, then I can totally understand why you think the way you do. Because otherwise, there is no logical reason for you to believe Bargnani should even remain a starter on this team, except that we have no other legitimate centres.

                • mac

                  what the F are you jibbering about. My comment was about how much we bent over backwards to help CB4 with help and ass kissing and not one player has been added to this team with the intentions of helping AB. The only attempt we got screwed by MJ

                • RapthoseLeafs

                  **** Salaries (HoopsHype data) ****
                  Current 2010-11 / 2011-12 / 2012-13 / 2013-14

                  Dirk – $17.3 million / 19.1 / 20.1 / 22.7

                  Amare – $16.5 million / $18.2 / 20.0 / 21.7

                  Bogut – $11.1 million / 12.1 / 13.2 / 14.2

                  Bargnani – $8.5 million / 9.0 / 10.0 / 11.0

                  Andrea doesn’t get paid anywhere near these guys (somewhat close to Bogut), so I find it troubling that you have no problem comparing their abilities. Reinforces my belief that statistics can be twisted to meet the need.

                  As for Dirk’s rebounding numbers, this year (with Chandler on board) = 7.0 rpg.

                  It’s debates like this that have me shaking my head, in how we define a value to Andrea. IMO, AB has great relative value. Fans just need to dial down what you get for that price – as judgment tends to reflect an expectation that he would replace Bosh, even though those same fans acknowledge CB was a better player – and was paid twice the salary.
                  The worst part about this witch hunt, is that it’ll probably be some warlock coming back in a trade …… lol.

                • Nilanka15

                  Price has nothing to do with anything in this debate. I’m sure the OPP can save a lot of money by replacing their turbocharged Ford Crown Victorias with Chevy Aveos, but what good would that do???

                  Bargnani’s contract is completely irrelevant to the fact that he doesn’t provide what a big man NEEDS to provide (whether at the 4 of 5), and that’s rebounding, help defense and shot blocking.

                  Nobody here claims that Bargnani’s contract is killing our salary cap. Bringing up his “financial worth” is a poor argument as it has no impact on Bargnani’s contributions on the court.

              • Nilanka15

                Ever heard of Gherardini?

            • RapthoseLeafs

              I like what Liston does here. And I do like what statistics can bring to the table. However, you have to take them in the context to which they’re applied. With sports, they bring a subjective side to the equation. Just like Economics.

              In the month of April, some people were espousing the upside to Bayless, even to the point where it’s been suggested that Jarryd could be our Starting point guard – a thought that truly scares me.

              As much as I don’t believe the last set of games have any real benefit, other than court time for guys like Alabi, I also don`t reference them when reviewing our talent. Yet they remain amongst the official stat line – bogus as they are.

              Demar’s points went up, but his efg% went down – a subtle reminder of what Andrea experienced this year with Bosh gone. For the most part, Derozan’s drop in numbers are essentially useless facts. At least until next year, when he becomes the #1 scoring option (with Andrea gone). Then we will know if he can handle it. Certainly not in the month of April – as those stats suggest it’ll be difficult for him.

              What I objected to, with Tom’s article, is that he seemed to ride the … I hate Bargnani wave, and posted stats that would ratify this perspective. I know his stats were down, but I also didn’t know Andrea had a better efg% than Dirk in the previous 2 years. In essence, there was no counter-point to his argument. That’s all that I was beefing about – not his overall integrity.

              • Tom Liston

                Appreciate the comment. I simply post the most commonly used advanced statistics and add my view based on the numbers. I do not “change/alter/manipulate” to serve a purpose – I simply wish to point out areas where the team may change lineups/PT/players in order to win more games. I could care less if the name beside the analysis was Joe Average or Michael Jordan.

                This does not mean you have to agree with the analysis. All of these measures have drawbacks (which I’ve outlined before). I know many take offense when I show their favourite player isn’t as productive as they want to believe. The only agenda is to highlight the most and least productive players. Again, your opinion is yours and I’ve been wrong in the past (and will be again). I don’t “hate” any player. I only dislike lack of productivity and lack of winning.

    • cesco

      Try to be a little more sober when watching a Rap game because the Raps won more games percentage wise with Andrea in the line up (.287) than with Andrea out ( .187) .
      Your faulty instinct may also be due to being a hater .

      • Webcrawler89

        I’m not a hater, that stat is useless and fallacious if he’s played more games than not this year. If he played 80 games, and missed two, and we happened to lose that two then well, it would mean we “can’t” win at all w/o him, which is basically what you’re trying to say.

        If the opposing team scored more on us with him on the court than off the court then basically it means he’s a defensive hole.

        I would love it Bargnani could play well, but he keeps telling us every year he’s working on defending and rebounding, and it never changes. Individual game he’s occasionally good, but on the whole it’s the same thing we’ve seen for 5 years now. In 5 years, the only thing he’s done that’s Dirk-like is score. That’s not all we need.

    • BCistheMan

      Do a Google on statistic and lies and look at how many articles and books and … comes up on how to lie with stats and how to manipulate it so that is supports your hypothesis.

      • cesco

        A statistician like Liston who also has the instinct of Webcrawler89 is the kind of GM the Raps need . He will come at a much cheaper cost than BC , I think .

      • Nilanka15

        Regardless, stats still provide a better measure than reading fanboys’ rants.

  • Bo4

    Bargnani is our most talented player. He does not fit with the rest of the rotation players. We need a starting SF beside DD that scares the opposition. JJ can be the sub, where he belongs currently. Therefore the wise thing to do, Bryan, is to trade Andrea away and to get a veteran SF in return. To make room for him in the rotation, Leandro also has to be traded away. We can offer Marc Gasol a contract the Grizz can’t afford to match to fill AB’s spot. Also, draft a 3rd-string PG. Then we’re off to the races …

    • Stu Jackson

      I think the Target to this draft should be Williams he fits perfect with DD and Bargs. He blocks, rebounds and bangs inside and hit the three. If they draft williams than raps dont need to trade bargs.

      • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

        I believe that the Rap’s, should they remain at #3, should target DWill, Barnes (if he comes out) & TJones in that order.

        Irving, most likely to go #1 or #2, should be off the board come the Rap’s pick if they don’t move up.

        I just want to see a Raptors roster w/o Jay coaching it & w/o Jose or Bargnani on it- Barg’s has to go no matter what.

        • If_Trianos_back_Im_gone

          So do I. So do I. I cannot stand Triano. The Raps can have Bargnani and Calderon still with the team, but with a competent coach, the players will be utilized correctly.
          Of course, it would be a great and ideal scenario to NOT have Triano and Bargnani on this team next year. (And fire that fat, useless Mr. Magoo Gherardini while they are at it.)

      • Nilanka15

        The LAST thing we need to do is draft based on who would fit well next to Bargnani.

  • Statement

    ANOTHER F’N Bargs SUX…No Bargs GUUD thread.

    Man, I used to take part in these convos, but now its clear that nobody’s mind is being changed.

    I want this guy traded, so that we can at least discuss other players.

    Damn…so much time spent on non-allstar. Why?

  • peanutplaza

    Always love the effort Mr Tom stats.
    I remember last season someone did a great graph of wins vs salary.
    I’m really curious how this season $$$ to W’s played out . If got time would love to see that. Maybe the results could shed some more light on our franchise.