Two ESPN insider comments today. There were two articles posted yesterday, one of them was a critique of Kyrie Irving’s game by David Thorpe. The other identified “tentpole” (giggity) players who are capable of being anchors on a team, better known as “franchise players” or “not Chris Bosh”. Some of the guys on that list: Zach Randolph, LaMarcus Aldridge, Kevin Garnett, Andre Iguodala, Andrew Bynum, Monta Ellis and Al Jefferson. How did they come up with this list, Tom Haberstroh explains:

For the offensive component, we’ll use offensive PER, a cousin of John Hollinger’s PER, which you can find on, that strictly looks at offensive production (no blocks or steals considered). Defense is less straightforward, so we’ll need to call in the ringers. We’ll package together three of the most comprehensive defensive metrics in the public forum: opponent PER, which tells us the PER of a player’s counterpart in the opposing lineup; defensive plus-minus, which tells us how the team defense improved with a player on the court; and Synergy Sports’ defensive efficiency rating, which uses countless hours of scout video tracking to assess a player’s defensive acumen. I combined the three ratings to come up with a rating that ranges from 1 to 100, in which 50 is average and 100 is the cream of the crop. That’s the defensive component. Both are on a 100-point scale.

So for example, LeBron James was a 100/97 (offense/defense), Randolph was a 94/65 and Monta Ellis was 76/27 (ouch on the defense bit). There’s a lot of stats out there which can muddy the waters when trying to analyze players, kind of like I did a few days ago when the Opponent PER. The Opponent PER completely discounts cross-switching, failed help assignments, and factors in defensive stats for the opposing player which skews the analysis the stat is primarily used for: to judge a player’s defense. Haberstroh’s tweaked the formula to get rid of the defensive stats, but it still neglects to factor the poor defense of other players on the team which lead to your man scoring. I think defensive plus-minus is great for rating bench players, and measuring their impact on the game. I would love to see aggregated +/- stats split based on the score differential in the game. This would account for teams making “runs” in blowouts, but at this point I’m complaining. The Synergy stuff I don’t know much about right now, but hope to soon. What do you think of Haberstroh’s metrics? Do they reflect a player’s impact/ability/talent well?

I can’t give you the whole list because it’s an ESPN Insider article, what I can do is move on and give you some info about the Kyrie Irving article by David Thorpe. Honestly, I’m like the Mother Theresa of ESPN Insider with all this giving.

If the Raptors do win the lottery or manage to be in a position where they have an opportunity to select Kyrie Irving, the PG of the future, here are some interesting observations from the very well-respected and The Doctor Is In guest, David Thorpe about Irving:

  • A star who can be the MVP of a playoff series, but not MVP of the league.
  • Brandon Roy at its peak with better playmaking skills. Can be very good at getting to the rim and finishing, great ball-handler. Can bounce-off bodies with the best of him. He’s drawing long comparisons with Roy, and basically saying he’s already on course to be better than him (healthy version).
  • Not at Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook on John Wall levels because he is not an uber-athlete. I very much agree with Thorpe here, athleticism at the point guard spot has never been greater, and when that athleticism is combined with speed and explosiveness, you get a player like Westbrook or Rose (not sure about Wall just yet). Irving has comparable, if not superior, skill to any of those guys, but he lacks in the dynamic aspect and that counts a lot these days.
  • Thorpe says that Irving is a “small draft risk” at #1 because he can shoot the ball, which will always make him a solid contributor. He’s basically saying that in the worst case, Irving will be a very good contributor who, if taken #1, will not make fans regret picking him.
  • When talking to phdsteve, Chris Denker of Netscouts suggested that Irving would be at least a year or two away from figuring out how to handle the NBA point. Thorpe is much more optimistic in this regard and the general theme of the article suggests that Irving is more NBA-ready than most credit him to be. Partially because he’s been performing at a high level for years which has bred a vital air of confidence in him.
  • I’ll end with a direct quote which Raptors fans should pay close attention to: “The team that drafts Irving should do so knowing that it has its point guard of the future wrapped up for a decade or so.”

Before you start calling for Colangelo to trade up and grab Irving, remember this is the same David Thorpe who said Solomon Alabi would be good. Jury’s out on that for sure, that doesn’t stop me from subscribing to his Irving analysis.

Love Z-Bo, but this was too funny. Still remember this game.

Share this:
  • Theswirsky

    “Some of the guys (franchise players) on that list: Zach Randolph, LaMarcus Aldridge, Kevin Garnett, Andre Iguodala, Andrew Bynum, Monta Ellis and Al Jefferson”

    Randolph, Monta, Jefferson, Iggy? What a terrible list of franchise players. Bynum? How do you give a guy franchise player status, when there is a franchise player already on the team?.

    Irving (or any rookie for that matter) – fans are always counting their chickens before they hatch. Five years ago there was the next superstar drafted at number 1, then the ROY and soon to be all-star was drafted 2 years ago at 9. Last year the next Chris Bosh was apparently drafted, and now the pg of the future is available. You’d think this team should be stacked pretty soon.

    • ak

      2-way players on that list include,
      randolph 94/65
      aldridge 97/79
      garnett 91/95
      iggy 65/95
      bynum 92/98

      faux franchise players are,
      amare 94/18
      al jefferson 87/31
      boozer 84/26
      monta 76/27
      kevin martin 89/40

      faux means is a french word for fake/false..

      i think the article was bang on and glad it was brought up in this blog. there is not a lot of really interesting reads to go around. this one is much appreciated!

      • Smushmush

        Bang on! on the fake franchise players – Amare is actually a franchise player (he revived the awful knicks and he is unusually clutch), Monta Ellis, Kevin Martin, Al Jefferson and Carlos Boozer definitely not franchise players imo. Andrew Bynum is a franchise player, he is just on an over-stacked Los Angeles Lakers team, if he were not a glass body and offensive plays were drawn around him, he will be effective as a franchise player imo (however, the last big man led teams who won the big one – NBA championship or Larry O’Brien trophy were the Tim Duncan-led San Antonio Spurs and the Hakeem Olajuwon-led Houston Rockets (with an asterisk, MJ tried his hands on baseball those two years lol), teams with franchise big men who are first ballot hall-of-famers. Imo, the big man conundrum winning in the NBA is really rare especially in the league where guards are given more leeway).

    • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

      ZBo aka Mr 20/10 is a stud PF and a Franchise player in Vancouver, err I mean Memphis- currently.

  • Mediumcore

    Thanks for the article. I’m on the trading up to secure Kyrie band wagon and Alabi still can be good. It was just his first year and frankly the team couldn’t afford to give the minutes he needed to develop. Way too early to give up on a 7 foot guy that didn’t touch a basketball until he was in his teens.

    • Nilanka15

      I like the idea of moving up for Irving too.

      But I also wouldn’t be disappointed if we ended up with Williams or Kanter

      • Mediumcore

        I’ve been flip flopping on Kanter because he hasn’t played in the NCAA, but from the few highlights I’ve seen of him he seems to have a traditional NBA low post game….I’ve also heard his height is up to 6’11” and not the listed 6’10” which would be great because he’s not much of a leaper or an athelete.

        • Bendit

          True he hasnt played “real” games but he was still around the Kentucky team for the year and was designated a player-coach (lol) and I assume practised with the team. On a couple of levels Calipari would not have permitted this if he wasnt a contributor and had leadership qualities.

        • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

          Be forewarned Kanter is another Steve Hawes (76ers) type of player in the making.

          Plus, alot of those shots he takes in the paint area against HS competition would get swatted back in his face in the NBA.

          Kentucky products TJones & BKnight are both better NBA prospects than Kentucky practice player Kanter.

          • Mediumcore

            Also, I’ve only seen highlights of his offense, none on the defensive end. That alone is reason enough to be concerned about the guy.

    • dragan_n

      I also believe Alabi can be good and is worth investing more time in him.

      • Mediumcore

        He might be a 2 or 3 year project because he started playing so late in life.

        • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

          Solo will be an all star- in the DLeague.

          Solo will be lucky to be Johan Petro (NJ)- do the math.

          • Mediumcore

            LOL, a little harsh. He’s got Sammy D’s build and athleticism and though that is not enough to predict the type of player he’ll be I could certainly see him as a shot blocking and rebounding centre.

    • Raptor4Ever

      Package Amir Johnson + Alabi + Our Own draft pick for the # 1 and draft Kyrie.

      This way you solve the Davis / Johnson problem and have 3 decent guys to go forward with in Kyrie, DD and Davis.

      Looking at Jason Terry from Dallas off the bench, Jamal.C from Atlanta, Odom from Lakers and how much they make, I can not help but to think how perfect AB will be for that role.

      Lets move Amir and our pick and get a solid PG for next 10 years and try AB off the bench this season and see where it takes us.

      • Mediumcore

        That sounded like a good proposition to get the #1 pick, but then again if you project that we’ll land the #3 pick then essentially you’re giving away one of our best players and Alabi to move up two spots….steep price to pay. Interesting proposition none the less.

        I never thought of Davis/Johnson as a problem. I considered the PF spot as our strongest position because of the two of them and it would not be an issue until it came time to pay Davis after his rookie contract was up.

        We’ve already got Barbosa that can score off the bench and he’s showing signs that he’ll be picking up the option on the last year of his contract.

        • Raptor4Ever

          I don’t even know if Amir + Alabi and for the sake of argument our #3 pick will be enough. There is a big gap between this guy and who ever goes #2 and #3 in this draft and you have to really convince the other team to say NO to a solid PG and a great Player to build around and …

          I have a feeling the other team would ask for Ed Davis in Place of Amir and I am not willing to do that. However, I am even willing to give them Bayless ( since he will be redundant here).

          The question you have to ask youself is this:
          Is Amir + Bayless + Alabi are worth NOT having this Kid !!

          I say No, they are not.

          • Darien

            Also, keep in mind that there is no guarantee that you pick first even with the first pick. We could trade all that away and then lose the lottery and get dropped to 4th. If we don’t get Kyrie, we don’t. We can always suck it up next year…………

            • mountio

              I think the concept is to make the trade once the lottery takes place and we know for sure where we are picking (and who is picking first) ..

      • Nilanka15

        I don’t see the Bargnani-off-the-bench idea working at all, and I really wish folks would stop mentioning it.

        Bargnani’s not comparable to either Crawford or Terry because Bargnani’s a big man. Therefore, even off the bench (whether playing the 4 or 5) he will be expected to rebound and rotate defensively. Crawford and Terry can get away with being mediocre defenders as wing players, but Bargnani wouldn’t have that luxury as a 4 or 5. Crawford and Terry can rely on their help defenders to bail them out, whereas Bargnani IS the help defender. Whether starting or off the bench, Bargnani’s deficiencies would still be largly on display. There’s no place to “hide” him.

        As for Odom, he’s MUCH more than just a scorer off the bench. It was mentioned yesterday that he’s a play-maker, defender, rebounder, ball-handler and floor leader…all aspects that Bargnani is incapable of contributing in.

        Long story short, Bargnani cannot be compared with any other player or situation in the NBA. He’s the only player in history who’s a #1 overall pick, playing PF/C who has guard-like ball skills, averages 20ppg, yet is a horrible defender with a strong aversion to the paint. We shouldn’t be looking for models elsewhere when trying to decipher what to do with Bargnani. We should ONLY be looking at the concrete evidence we have available, and that’s the last 5 years in Toronto.

        • ak

          first guard off the bench is required to score, ie terry, ben gordon, crawford. third big is needed for extra fouls and toughness. something amir johnson suited for much more than bargs.

        • barenakedman

          Bargs off the bench is something I’m looking at with an open mind.
          First let’s remember that it will only happen if Triano, or whoever is passing out PT is not in denial regarding his liabilities. If they think pairing him with a newly acquired big man that will compensate for his weaknesses it could be a frustrating time waiting that one out.
          But, if he is given 20-25 off the bench i think we’ll be looking at a new man. He has had games where his scoring made the difference between a win or a loss and his effort on D was much better than usual. I’m thinking that effort could become habitual especially covering other bench players. The other thing to consider is can he handle the reality that it may be better for him and the team that he adjust to a new role.

          • Nilanka15

            I’m just tired of all the Bargnani experimentation in an attempt to get him to “fit” somewhere. We’ve tried him at SF, at PF and at C. We’ve brought him off the bench, we’ve tried him as a secondary option, and we’ve tried him as the primary option. We’ve tried being tough with him (Mitchell) and we’ve tried giving him freedom (Triano). We’re CONSTANTLY trying to find a new, ingenius way to get Bargnani to become a great player and it’s never happened. At some point, you have to remind yourself that it’s been 5 long years. Enough is enough. It’s time to cut our loses and move on, rather than hanging onto a tiny thread of hope that Bargnani can change his ways.

            Fool me once, shame on you.
            Fool me twice, shame on me.
            Fool me three times, four times and five times, and we’re all excruciatingly stubborn dumb shits.

            Bargnani is not going to change.

            • barenakedman

              I don’t recall Bargs coming off the bench except very early in his career under Mitchell. At that time he was looked at as a good up and coming offensive player and his defense never came under the kind of scrutiny it has the last couple of seasons.

              • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

                His defense was why Sam had him coming off of the

            • Raptor4Ever

              This is not about fool me and … Trying him at SF was a mistake on the coaching staffs part. He never got a chance to play a PF with Bosh begin here and … Anyway, All that talk about the past and his positions and … is irrelevant.

              You are right, we have tried and we have invested so much so why give him up now !!!

              Next season might be a SHORT SEASON as well. The Best Outcome for Raptors next season is to develop their young guys and get another great Draft pick.

              This team is NOT going to compete next year. It is under the CAP so his salary is not going to hurt either.

              Next season is about really evaluating what we have again and Keeping Barg and trying him as the 6th man is the ONLY Logical step forward.

              • Nilanka15

                “we have tried and we have invested so much so why give him up now !!!”

                Successful businesses recognize their mistakes and cut their losses when something’s not working (even if it’s a tough decision to make).

                There’s no room for sentimentality in professional sports. After all, it’s a business. You make money by winning more games than you lose, which isn’t possible with fundamentally flawed players on our roster.

                • Raptor4Ever

                  Wrong again !! You don’t move you assets when they have their lowest value if you can afford to keep it and see how the market turns up. The Cost of Keeping AB as the 6th man in minimal and almost nothing to Raptors next season. This is how the real world works πŸ™‚

                • Brasky

                  Raptor4Ever, Bargnani’s value is in perpetual decline right now. Considering he really doesn’t help this team win at all, and if we want to actually start winning games before his contract expires, now is the time to make a move. If we keep waiting, the rest of the league is going to come to grips that we have a 10+ million dollar Radmonovich on our hands and it will be a complete waste of a long and painful investment.

                • Raptor4Ever

                  There are few points in your post that I do not agree with and here they are :

                  1) Perpetual decline: I believe he is at his lowest value especially this summer due to the new CBA uncertainties.

                  2) Doesn’t help the team win: This team is not going to win next season anyway with or without AB.

                  3)Start winning: This should not be our goal for next season. Our Goal should be developing our young players and letting them grow in their ROLE and see what each person has to really offer and …

                  4) As I said to another poster, the rest of league knows eactly what AB is all about already. They are no idiots and we are not hiding AB’s shortcomings by trading him early. Give them more credit.

                  The Bottom line is you have a stock in your hand that its value can not drop anymore or if it does, in the grand scheme of things is not that big of deal. For example, you bought a house for 300 K and the price dropped to 175 K . Now, you are able to pay the mortgage for new few months or rent it out or … and you know the market has bottomed up and there is noway the price will go down in the next few month or if it does it will be 5 K which is nothing compare to ur 125 K lost already.

                  The logical step here is to hold on to the house and hope market will pick up. This is AB for you. In a Short loosing rebuild season next year, we can afford holding on to him and trying him as a 6th man. His weaknesses are well known in the league now and another season will not hurt his value much.

                • Theswirsky

                  Bargnani’s “stock” sure can still drop, and 10 mil a year in what is bound to be a smaller salary cap era is a big deal.

                  40 mil for the next 4 years for a guy that (at best) doesn’t help your team…. that is a money sink.

                  Honestly, that was the worst reasoning I’ve ever heard to justify keeping this guy around.

                • James

                  you are Right. Trade him now and get a few 2nd round picks and few bad contracts because he is what is standing between us and championship. Are you sure your name is NOT Tim !!! Because Tim W. Always claimed here that if it was not because of AB, this team would have made the play off. Timmi, is this you ?

                • Theswirsky

                  I didn’t say a single one of those thing you just mentioned.

                  Although I do find it funny that you think Bargnani is worth a few 2nd round picks and some bad contracts. Kinda tells you what Bargnani’s real value really is huh?

                • Raptor4Ever

                  LOL, Wrong Again and it is sad that you still not getting it. What any commodity’s current value is perceived to be is NOT necessarily what its real value is πŸ˜‰ There are many factors the define and set prices and values.

                  I can not explain everything to you here. Econ 101 Pal, take it and come back and read again.

              • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

                Bosh was playing center most nights when paired with CB- were you not watching the games? I was.

                Barg’s has been playing a stretch 4 most of his Raptors career- don’t buy the I’m a PF hype. Even this season Amir/Ed/Evans would bang with centers while AB floated on offense and defense.

              • Balls of Steel

                You remind me of a bad gambler that lost everything and takes out a line of credit in the hopes of recouping the losses and perhaps even has a dream of winning. Your loyalty to AB7 is admirable but misdirected. The player must fit the team and not the other way around. It’s always been like that.

                • Raptor4Ever

                  Econ 101 my friend, Econ 101 and risk Analysis.

                • Theswirsky

                  This isn’t economics 101, this is business yes there is a difference and had you taken those courses you would know).

            • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

              I BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!! approves this

            • points

              “We’ve tried him at pf ,sf and c ” but the truth is bargs is realy a point gaurd .

        • Raptor4Ever

          This team will be in a rebuild year next year and is not going to make the Play offs. At the same time, AB’s trade value is at its lowest value possible with what went on in Toronto this year.

          What do we have to loose to play this guy one more year as the 6th man !!! Nothing !!! At least, if it does not work out, we can trade him knowing we tried everything to keep him in the picture.

          Lets face it, the guy can easily score 20 pt a game against the starters. Just imagine how he can do against the scrubs of the 2nd unit of other teams.

          Barbosa and AB from the bench will pack a great 1-2 punch against other teams.

          To me this makes so much sense and BC should do it UNLESS a great Deal comes in trade for AB.

          We have invested so much on this kid and have given up so much that it does not make sense to sell him at his lowest value while the cost of keeping him for another year has a very small and has a very low risk. This is economic 101.

          • Nilanka15

            I actually think his value is as high as it will get right now. Bargnani’s coming off a career high in scoring, and a lot of people put more emphasis in PPG when evaluating players.

            Next year, Bargnani’s PPG is sure to drop with the expected increase in offensive production from DeRozan, Davis, Bayless, Amir, and whoever our draft pick is, combined with potentially reduced minutes (if coming off the bench).

            The one thing Bargnani does well (scoring) will be negatively affected, which will only hurt his trade value. Therefore the time to trade him is this offseason. Going into training camp with Bargnani on the roster will be a mistake, as it will only become harder to trade him as his PPG decreases next year.

            • Raptor4Ever

              “I actually think his value is as high as it will get right now.”

              Do you really believe this or secretly hoping that other teams do !!! AB was ripped by his GM and his teammates. He has been torn into piece by the fans and Toronto Media.

              When you think about trades and … you Should always assume that other GMs in this league have an Basketball IQ and understanding that is more than a 5 year olds.

              The Only Players in Raptor Team who have some Real Trade values in Draft are DD and Davis and somewhat Amir.

              On the other hand, if AB flourish in the 6th man position then you can trade him the following year and get some real values back.

              Right now, you are not getting anything for AB especially with the uncertainty of new CBA and …

              • Balls of Steel

                “Do you really believe this or secretly hoping that other teams do !!! AB was ripped by his GM and his teammates. He has been torn into piece by the fans and Toronto Media.”

                You just stated why the team should trade the big pasta.

                • Adam

                  and you just stated that you want to trade AB just because you want to make a trade and not caring about the team and the future and what you can get back.

                • Balls of Steel

                  Who says I didn’t care about the return? I merely stated why he should be traded. Unlike Raptor4Ever, I think that AB’s value is as high as it’s going to get. I care about the team and maximum returns for Andrea Bargnani.

                • Steve

                  Let me ask you this question, you are GM of an NBA team and you have seen AB play last season and heard was BC said and what Toronto Media has been saying and …

                  What are you willing to give up to get AB πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰

                  I am curious to know.

          • Balls of Steel

            Seventeen million dollars between two players (Bargs and Barbs) coming of the bench and ten million dollars for a back-up point guard that lost his shot (Calderon). Twenty-seven million dollars with these three players. And we want the man (BC) back for this ‘economic 101’ disaster?

            I’m worried you’ll have no one to root for in the team once he is traded. Oh, by the way, AB7’s is yesterday’s Nortel stocks. We know what happened to that ‘economic 101’ fiasco.

            • Raptor4Ever

              LOOOOOOOL, so you have few bad investements and hence you go and move the one that might actually turn around πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ LOOOOLLLL, Econ 101 Pal.

              If you want to move someone , you need to move Jose. His value is the same this summer and next. there is no scenario that his value might go up next year.

              If you want to move someone, you should move Barbosa, His value is not going to change. there is no scenario that his value might go up next year.

              On the other hand, AB as a 6th man, if it works, then his value is going to increase and then you can make a decision to move him or keep him.

              Nortel πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ man, I made quite a bit of money when people like you probably were selling the stock when it hit its original lows and did not care to wait a few weeks to see it bounce up again and then drop and … It is all about the timing and Nortel stock did very very very well for me πŸ˜‰ πŸ™‚

              • Theswirsky

                you mean the company that went bankrupt? So you bought stock in it after it dropped and then sold shortly thereafter to make money? How does that even remotely compare to Bargnani?

                If Bargnani was a stock he would be one you already held and is dropping. The difference, instead of paying a dividen, it takes money out of your account.

                So the smart investment here is to hold on to a “stock” that is at a so called “all time low”, with absolutely no indication it will rise, and yet still costs you additional money every month/year… Yeah where do I sign up to your invesment firm?

                • Raptor4Ever

                  LOOOOLL, It sad that you still do not get what I am saying and after some of us were able to make ton of cash from Nortel, the company that went bankrupt, you still think it is impossible even looking back πŸ™‚ I juuuusssttt looovveee it Pal.

                • Raptor4Ever

                  Sometime life is too short trying to explain these things to a guy like you. You need to know addition before I can teach you multiplication πŸ˜‰ But think about it little more and ask a few pals to help you out, you can even google it and see how some of us made money off Nortel when people like you were panicking and taking huge losses and selling and selling …

                • Theswirsky

                  ummm no I don’t think you understand what I’m saying.

                  You are comparing Bargnani to a stock that you can buy at X price and then sell at Y… the only risk is your initial investment.

                  Bargnani on the other hand costs you money every year to keep, and takes up limited space (both financially ie. the salary cap, and physically ie. roster space)… so there is added additional risk (cost) to keeping him in hopes his “stock rises”.

                  There is also no guarantee his “stock” has hit bottom, or won’t valley out (ie. won’t go up again).

                  There is more to risk by keeping Bargnani in hopes his stock rises than just the “investment” in him. Even IF his value couldn’t get any lower, he still costs time, energy and money to maintain on a roster each year/month/week/day.

                  But please… go on with Nortel. Its so very enlightening….

        • Sam

          Here’s a model – Vlad Radmanovich

      • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

        Before Amir is traded Bargnani better be traded as Barg’s should get you more value in return. Plus Barg’s quit on the Rap’s post London ala VC- point blank.

        I can live with a Rap’s PF rotation of Davis/Johnson for the long haul as long as the Rap’s get a legit center ie Dalembert, Chandler, Kaman.

        Irving is not the next best thing- please don’t drink the 10 year pg kool aid article

        2012 is the draft of the pgs.

    • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

      The team (22-60) couldn’t afforrd to give Solo minutes to develop?

      Wasn’t this a REBUILD year- as per BC & Jay?

      It was reported that Solo is so raw that coaches were scared to let Solo practice with the team because they believed that he may hurt someone- am I wrong?

      Solo needs to have his guaranteed contract for next season bought out or the Rap’s need to try to trade him to Denver since ex Raptors Assistant GM Masai Ujiri and currently the Nuggets GM was the primary reason behind the Rap’s acquiring him in the 1st place.

      Being 7 feet doesn’t make one a basketball player as the game is littered with 7 foot scrubs.

      • Mediumcore

        The fact that he didn’t get minutes to develop wasn’t his fault..that was the coaching staffs problem.

        He might be a scrub and then again he may end up being servicable, but my point is that this was his first season and he didn’t see minutes, so they should give up on him after just this one season.

        • Mediumcore

          *should NOT give up on him after just one season

    • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

      Alabi is the next Saer Sene (Sonics).

  • Nilanka15

    Around this time last year, there was a LOT of Avery Bradley talk, but I haven’t heard his name once since the Celtics picked him. I realize he was playing behind Rondo and Robinson, but does anyone still see potential in him? Would he be worth looking into (in terms of trade) if we don’t land Kyrie?

    • Statement

      Isn’t he sort of an undersized combo guard. I think the defense is good, but lacks pg skills and size to play SG.

      Well I guess he would fit right in with the Raptors then….lol

    • sleepz

      He got some burn after they traded Robinson and had the injuries with Delonte. He doesn’t lack confidence but had extreme difficulties running the offence from the games I watched him play.

      I’m like everyone else in that getting Kyrie would be great but if you’re following college and high-school hoops and looking at some of the guards that could be available next year or even the year after, if we don’t get Kyrie in this draft there will be other top tier guards to draft in the near future i.e M.Teague (Kentucky), A.Rivers (Duke-more combo guard but can create at will), Q.Cook (Duke), M.Kabongo (UT-homegrown product) K.Marshall (UNC), T.Wroten(UW-underrated talent), S.Scott(OSU)

      If we don’t get Irving it will not be the worst thing to happen. The worst thing to happen would be to lose 60 games and not get a talent in this draft that can help your team for the next 5-7 years regardless of the position they play.

      • Nilanka15

        Good point. I just hope that Colangelo (or whoever is running the team next year) has the stomach to withstand another lottery-bound season in front of a fan-base calling for his head, and who haven’t witnessed a local playoff game in 3+ years.

        • mountio

          I hope so too. Because the fanbase needs to have patience – its the only way to build a winner. We had one shitty year – thats great .. but we need another one (and a little luck in the draft). Then we can start thinking about key free agent signings to complement some actual talent.
          You can’t have it both ways .. don’t cry for a quick fix, but then complain when the GM signs / overpays free agents. OR dont claim you want a rebuild, but hack on the GM for not going out and picking up enough guys on the open market ..

          • slaw

            Everything in this thread of comments is on point. This rebuild is going to take awhile and patience is required. The Raps simply need to take the best player they can find wherever they draft and hopefully you get lucky and one of them turns into an elite player.

            Even if Irving is as good as John Wall, well, look how many games the Wiz won this year. Even if Derrick Williams is the next Paul Pierce, well, how did the Celts do when all they had was Pierce? Patience, luck and smarts. Hopefully, the Raps will have all 3.

          • Theswirsky

            1 shitty year? You didn’t happen to watch the two previous season’s I’m assuming. Or, at the very least, the dissappointing one the year prior to that?

            There’s no doubt a rebuild will take some time, whats unfortunate is that this team is just starting rather than 2 years into it…..

            • mountio

              Agreed to some extent that we maybe should have seen the writing on the wall earlier. But, the point is, you have to get really bad to get good in the NBA. This is the first year we have been really bad (ie top 3-5 lottery pick bad) .. the other years may have been “disappointing” .. but thats a lot different than being bad. That gets us DD, not Blake Griffen. That gets us Ed, not John Wall. Im not complaining about our last two drafts .. I think weve done well all things considered .. but we need at least one stud (if not two) to turn the corner.

              • Nilanka15

                Strongly agree.

        • sleepz

          Well based on the talent on this roster, Kyrie or not they are headed back to the lottery next year.

          • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

            And the year after, and the year after- can you say TWolves?

            • points

              not if we get cardiac kemba … it’s ROY ,COY and EOY trust me.

        • Raptor4Ever

          They have no choice BUT to have the stomach for it πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ Thinking we are able to compete next year with making another move or two is just foolish.

          We started this rebuild process and we need to give it at least 3 season.

          • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

            We started this rebuild process?lol

            Or did BC brainstorm with his staff ie BC consensus, and come up with that particular sometime in January as the losses mounted up?

            I really hope the new owners whomever they may turn out to be will blow this whole team up and acquire talent that will compete now- not in 3 years as the future is not guaranteed to anyone.

            • Nilanka15

              Do you realize that you constantly contradict yourself? You bash Colangelo for attempting the “quick fixes” in acquiring Kapono, O’Neal and Turkoglu to compete now instead of later. And now you’re saying that’s exactly what the Raptors should do? Which is it, SirChillyMost?

              Just ask the Knicks how many playoff wins “competing now” guarantees.

              • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

                After 3 years of no playoffs the time to compete is now with new competent ownership who hopefully will make solid moves not fantasy basketball hype types- substance over image, to improve the Rap’s talent level from the front office unto the basketball court.

                My quick fix pipe dream is PG CP3 & C DHoward in the TDot- trade the whole team away and build

                Sure beats Rap’s current starting PG Jose & C Bargnani aka I’m a Power Forward.

                Fyi- I have never spoken on the Kapono f/a signing by BC in this forum- Keep it 100% with me don’t make up shit as to seemingly come off as being

                I didn’t bash BC for his quick fixes I bashed him for who he tried to quik fix with ie 20 million dollar man JO coming off of an injury that took his pre injury all star game away (which also cost us a 1st rounder to get rid of to Miami).

                & Turk (who would be around 35 when his BC signed contract expired) who any NBA follower could have told you plays horrid defense and wouldn’t fit in well with AB & CB in the Rap’s frontcourt. The only reason Turk was traded so easily is because his agent Lon Babby took over the Suns basketball operations it wasn’t a shrewd move by BC.

                Knicks current situation >>> Raptors current situation- do the injured Billups playoff math plus they were playing a top line NBA championship contending team in the Celtics (KG, PP, Rondo & Allen)- no shame in getting swept at least they were in the playoffs- not on the sidelines with no guidelines.

                Who is this SirChillyMost you speak of buddy?lol

            • Points


      • Smushmush

        Concur, 2012 draft will be a really deep draft, if we don’t get a position filled in the draft this year especially at PG, that is okay (Infact, I will go on a limb to say the Toronto Raptors should draft an SF since a lot of franchise PGs will be coming out in the 2012 draft). If I were the GM, the 2012 draft is the draft to have 2 or more picks to fill up the last 2 positions of weakness on this team after covering up one in the 2011 NBA draft and watch the team grow with little tweaks instead of the wholesale acquiry of players, the Toronto Raptors do every year.

      • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

        TW isn’t really underrated as he has been among the top rated prospects if not the top rated for his class (2011) until he injured his ACL (same type as Jamal Crawford) playing football as a junior in HS thus ever since his injury scouting services have been doubting his athleticism & skill level but Tony Wroten Jr aka GPS is showing and proving with his on court play- Jay Bilas called (tweeted) Wroten Jr the best player on the court at the Jordan Brand Classic.

        Tony Wroten Jr of the University of Washington (2012 draft?) is the best pg coming out in the next few years- trust.

        The kid is already passing at an elite NBA level (won MVP of the Jamal Crawford Summer Pro League last summer) plus has premium size- a legit 6’4 (w/o shoes 206) with all the pg skills desired sans a consistent jumper from 3.

        The kid is a pure athlete ran one of the fastest 100 meter times in the Washington State this year and is a certified gym rat- Joyce Walker is his aunt (1st female Harlem Globetrotter).

        And he plays solid defense (Team USA coaches called him the best on ball man defender on the roster).

        • sleepz

          Fair enough. That being said he wasn’t selected to the McDonalds HS game so that is why I refer to him as underrated. Maybe that was more odue to East Coast biased voting but he was obviously playing with a serious chip on his shoulder in the JB CLassic because of the snub.

          I do love his confidence, he’s a true playmaker and all signs point to him being a good defender. We’ll see what Romar does with him at UW this year.

          • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

            Kool like that.

            Mickey D’s East coast bias for certain- politics, no Jabari Brown (California-Oregon) either. Brown & Wroten are both better than Wiltjer.

            I think only 1 player from the West coast- Wiltjer (Oregon-Kentucky), was choosen for the Mickey D’s game- which the JBC was the better game of the two in my mind.

            Yes, he most definately has a chip on his shoulder & Romar may only have 1 year with

            Abdul “Caddy” Gaddy, Terrence “NASA” Ross & Tony “GPS” Wroten Jr- 3 The Hard Way.

            • sleepz

              Washington will definitely be giving Arizona and company in the PAC 10 problems this year.

    • Let me just say that I was one of the people vehemently against drafting Bradley at 13. While I loved his defense, I really didn’t think he had the PG skills to make the transition in the NBA to PG.

      • sleepz

        It’s true you did.

        You also thought the same thing about J.Holliday.

        • Smushmush

          Funny thing is that 10+ GMs passed on Jrue Holiday when he has the physical tools (long hands to even defend the SG spot in the NBA!) to play the position and he is a daily mismatch at the PG spot(6’4). Now, he has proven them wrong, as long as your PG is in the Andre Miller mold – average at worst (7 assists per game is average imo), that is okay for me, you need talent at either wing positions to win the big one in the NBA.

          • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

            I would rather have JHoliday (who was selected after DD) than DD right now as a Raptor.

        • True. My record’s still better than Rob Babcock, though.

      • James

        Here I left some Chocolate bars for you at your home with your wife. Kuddos to you for your prediction.

        • Thanks. I can’t find the chocolate, though, I’ll just grab some from your mom.

          • James

            Damn, your wife eat it all πŸ˜‰ That woman has a hell of appetite πŸ™‚

            • So does your mom. But not for chocolate…

              • James

                ahhhh, Timmi, Did you get the chocolate I left at the dresser in your house with your wife last night πŸ™‚ I made sure she had enough to eat so your shares should be safe.

                • No, Jamie. I didn’t. I was too busy giving your mom a treat. And boy does she have a big appetite. She couldn’t get enough. Damn near wore me out. Luckily I had enough energy to give your sister a treat, though.

                • Jaime

                  LOL, man you should come up with more clever come backs. you just can’t eat the shit I gave in the earlier posts, twist it in your mouth and then puke it out and pretend it is some come back pal πŸ˜‰ Think harder. Learn from your wife, she always swallows. But good news, It seems like AB is getting finally traded and maybe you can spend sometime with your wife rather than on this forum bitching about his rebounding πŸ˜‰ because the woman is wearing me out pal πŸ˜‰ tomorrow, night, when you are home, ask her about the few new moves I taught her. You be quite happy and yes, you are WELCOME πŸ˜‰ It was all my pleasure.

                • James

                  P.S. I don’t have the sister Timi so I think you have been pranked and did our herpes infected old maid πŸ˜‰ get yourself checked pal, I don’t want you to give something to your wife pal. I am concern about her health. πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰

                • Personally, I don’t care how clever my insults are. You obviously come to this site for adolescent name calling, but I don’t. You really are a piece of work.

      • Statement

        golf clap.

    • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

      I would like to see a potential Bargnani for Green (S&T) & Bradley deal with Boston.

      Bradley can be an elite level defender and has speed to burn sorta like a young Barbosa all he needs is real game experience.

  • I like Kyrie and I think Thorpe isn’t the best guy to go to for expert advice. He ignores Deron Williams, who is considered an elite player despite less than elite athleticism. One reason I like Irving is that he doesn’t rely on athleticism like a guy like Wall. When those types of guys are injured, it affects them a lot more. uys who rely less on athleticism tend to play longer at a high level and don’t dropoff suddenly. Think Jason Kidd or Steve Nash as opposed to a Steve Francis or Allen Iverson.

    • Mediumcore

      Solid point Tim.

      • Raptor4Ever

        Kyrie is THE DRAFT Pick in this season. The future of Raptors can look very bright with him on the line up.

        • Mediumcore

          Agreed. There is a big gap between Kyrie and the rest in this years draft.

          • Nilanka15

            I don’t know if I agree. I think Williams will be a stud. I could see him winning ROY.

            • Mediumcore

              If Williams can move to the 3 and that is a big if then he has a chance. But right now the player with the easiest path to success in the NBA imo is Kyrie. Just my opinion.

  • BCGheradiniJayGots2Go!!

    Rebuild, rebuild, rebuild, rebuild- repeat the BC lie long enough and some fans will bind to it.lmfao

    Critical thinking is a must even if in BC you

  • Bo4

    Who were the RAPTOR player over 50/50?

  • John

    Every Raptor fan should be excited about getting this guy and if the cost is Amir Johnson, so be it .

    • Nilanka15

      I would have no problem exchanging Amir for the top pick (i.e. Irving).

      But I’m sure there would be much better offers from other teams than Amir.

      • Adam

        Our 3rd pick + Amir + Bayless + Alabi !!!

        That is a pretty good Offer and not sure many teams can match it.

        • guest


    • If the cost is Bargnani, then all the better.

      • cesco

        So in your opinion Andrea can get you a franchise player in exchange . I knew you had some smarts Tim , thanks .

        • Steve

          LLLOOOOLLLL, no one listen to Tim when it comes to AB. He has lost all his creditability when he made all his posts about AB and how hiw 1.2 rebound difference is what makes Raptors win or lose or When he made the Bold claim that if you trade AB, this team would have made the Playoffs !!!!!

          • If you can point to the posts where I said that, I’d be very interested. Just saying someone said something isn’t the same as them actually saying it. In fact it’s lying.

            And I’m not quite sure how I’ve lost credibility in regards to Bargnani. It seems I’ve been right about him all along. That’s got to hurt, doesn’t it?

  • minks77

    Thorpe says that Bargnani is a β€œsmall draft risk” at #1 because he can shoot the ball, which will always make him a solid contributor. He’s basically saying that in the worst case, Bargnani will be a very good contributor who, if taken #1, will not make fans regret picking him.

    get the point? there is much more to this game than the ability to shoot. Not knocking KI but that’s some weak analysis.