It appears as though quite a few in the Republic disagree with my assertion that the Raptors should trade their first round draft pick. There generally seems to be three main criticisms; Jared Sullinger isn’t that good and wouldn’t have been selected before (or when) the Raptors came up, that a player from the top six would fall, and that players chosen in the Raptors slot in past drafts have (with some frequency) turned out to be all-star talents. With regards to Sullinger, my point wasn’t so much that he had value to the Raptors (although a healthy Sullinger in my opinion would be a solid pickup at 8), but rather how much value he had to the first seven teams.

As the pool of potential top ten draftees’ diminishes (as it did with Sullinger’s red flag), it increases the odds the Raptors will get an inferior prospect. As for the other two criticisms, in another draft class I might even agree with them, but the NBA draft needs to be looked at in a vacuum. The value of a certain pick can vary wildly depending on the particular year, so while it’s nice to think you’ll get a player comparable to past eighth overall selections like Rudy Gay or Robert Parish, you’re far more likely to end up with T.J Ford or Brandon Wright. In the worst case scenario, you might also end up with Joe Alexander or *gulp* Rafael Araujo. While the names I threw out there either put a smile or tear on your face, they’re really meaningless, as none of those players are in this year’s draft, and that should be all we’re concerned about. The assertion that every year a player in the 7-12 range turns out to be a future all-star is false, and even if it were the case, there is no way to predict which player that will be.

Finally, many believe that the Raptors would be misguided to trade their first round pick because a player from the top six prospects (Davis, Robinson, MKG, Beal, Barnes and Drummond) will fall out of their draft slot and right into Toronto’s eager hands. This has happened in the past, and to be quite frank, it’s happened quite a lot, as GM’s overreach for players who had no business being taken that early (Hoffa’s a prime example). Just because it has happened in the past, however, in no way indicates for a certainty that it will happen this year. Actually, I would argue that there is no chance of this happening. If you look at the top 6 in this draft, I would love to hear which 2 of the remaining 24 first round picks will supplant them. Even if you think one team’s GM in the top 6 will make a misguided choice on draft night, the Raptors need one third of the GM’s in the top 6 overreach.

Before we go, I’m in need of some feedback. For tomorrow’s article, I’d like to do an in depth analysis of one potential Raptors draft pick, since after all, odds are they keep the pick (even if I disagree). So, when replying to my flawed logic, please give the name of player you’d like to see profiled. And yes, Jae Crowder counts (he of the unexpected 1 ½ inch growth spurt).

Last but not least – the RR Draft Party near Yonge/College at St. Louis Bar and Grill. This is your chance to throw eggs at us. Like, actual eggs.

  • Brain Colangelo

    Lillard vs waiters vs lamb vs sullinger. Who do you pick at 8? Looks like only one of them will be gone before we pick.

    I say keep the pick. Getting a starter on the rookie scale is huge. Not sure if with the new cap getting a backup on the rookie scale hurts – I suspect that may be why teams want to trade out of the draft.

    • WhiteVegas

      I agree. I like all of Lillard, Waiters, and Lamb (Drummond if he fell would be interesting trade bait).
      The 8th pick salary is only a little over $2M a year, going up to $2.9M in their 4th year. That is a very affordable contract in the current CBA (cap is about $58M), even for a backup, and could wind up being a heavily contributing starter.

      I’d like to see Waiters profiled. He seems to be moving up a lot of draft boards and fits a need for the Raps.

  • KuH

    Sure, I’d love to see a profile of Jae Crowder.

    • Al_Oliver

      it might be a little short…

      • Checbenj

        I took a picture of that piece of art in Venice last fall………………. It is a parody of the Statue of Perseus holding the head of Medusa which can be seen in Florence

        • Al_Oliver

          nice!

  • Andre

    i say we pick Lillard or Jones 3. 

    Lets Go RAPTORS

    GET THAT PICTURE OF THAT DUDE OUT OF MY LIFE!!!!! are you trying to curse this draft? The draft pick who shall not be named must never be mentioned again… 

  • meductic

    People discount how deep this years draft is, especially when compared to last year’s. Barnes, PJ3, Sullinger pre red flag, and others all would have gone higher last year and have looked good at their draft spot. By comparison this year their weaknesses glare due to the sheer size of the talent pool. Secondly, I believe that even though the Raptors are further along a rebuild than the most cynical it will still be a few years before they can look at being top half competitive and therefore should only think of trading the pick for a young player or a higher pick… and sure, Jae Crowder, why not. I think the two second round picks this year have been vastly under rated and with a bit of luck the team may be able to pick up a solid rotation player who sticks.

    • Dan Rouleau

      You draft players based upon potential, taking into consideration their age and years of training at a high level.

      Barnes draft stock dropped when compared to last year because his (perceived or real) ceiling was revised downward. In other words, the Barnes of Today would be drafted after the Barnes of Last Year were they in the same draft.

      The same logic applies to Sullinger. Scouts saw basically the same player this year and last year and thus estimate his ceiling is actually lower than they thought last year.

      PJ3’s questions surrounding him were not resolved this year (or not in a way that reflects positively on him), so his stock is what it is: a high-risk potentially high-reward gamble. He could also be out of the league in 3 years.

  • c_bcm

    Marshall vs Waiters

    • Destro

      *pukeface*

  • Nilanka15

    IMO, the top 7 picks are:

    1. Davis
    2. MKG
    3. Robinson
    4. Beal
    5. Drummond
    6. Barnes
    7. Lillard

    It’s not entirely out of the realm of possibilities to think that one (or more) of Waiters, PJ3, Rivers or Lamb move into the top 7.

    If the Raptors end up with any of the top 7 above, I think this draft is considered a success.

    As for the prospect profile, I would like to learn your thoughts on Scott Machado.  In terms of his impact, I see him as last year’s Isiah Thomas.

    • mountio

      I think you are pretty much bang on for the top 6. At 7 .. more of a wild card (Lamb,Lillard, maybe sullinger, maybe waiters) … but as we all know .. there is usually a curveball in the top 5 (the T Thomson from last year) .. so I dont think its crazy that someone like Barnes might fall to us. Unforunately, I think the guy who is most likely to fall is Drummond .. who I have no interest in for the Raps ..

    • CalgaryRapsFan

      If that top 6 happened, I could see Lillard dropping to 8th, as I don’t think Golden State would draft a PG.  In that scenario, I think PJIII/Jones/Sullinger (if deemed healthy) would get picked at 7, leaving Lillard for Toronto at 8.  In that case, I might be inclined to keep the pick.

      I do think there’s a decent chance that one of the consensus top-7 guys do drop.  I think it will either be Lillard or Drummond, based on everything I’ve read the last few days.

      IMO, the top 7 picks are:

      1. Davis
      2. Beal or Robinson
      3. Robinson or Beal
      4. Barnes
      5. MKG or Drummond
      6. MKG/Drummond or Lillard
      7. MKG/Drummond or PJII

      MKG won’t drop past 7th.  Ultimately I think that one of Lillard or Drummond could drop to 8th, with Lillard being the most likely, since I think Portland (6) is the only team ahead of Toronto that would draft him.

    • Brain Colangelo

      Machado is not the athlete that Thomas is.  They’re different players.  If you mean that Machado could have great late-2nd round value, I agree.

    • Raps Loyalist

      Meyers Leonard is another guy to add to your list of guys that could move into the top 7.   Athletic/Legit 7 footers that have even a semblance of offensive game always rise as the draft date approaches. 

      G State could take him as Bogut’s backup/injury insurance/future replacement.

      I totally agree with your top 7 ranking and just like T. Thompson last year someone surprise could jump up a few spots into the top of the draft. (finger crossed)

      • Mapko

        Agreed.
        Miles Leonard or another big guy. There is always a GM willing to gamble (accelerate ahead of his place) on a big guy.

  • Theswirsky

    “The assertion that every year a player in the 7-12 range turns out to be a future all-star is false, and even if it were the case, there is no way to predict which player that will be. ”

    the first part of this statement may be true… but what is also true is there are, every year, ‘all-stars’ available at or after the eigth pick.  Some years there are multiples of them, some years just one.  There are also multiple ‘near all-star’ players available.

    What people really need to ask themselves is how ‘bad’ is this draft?  If people think this will be one of the worst drafts in history, then perhaps it makes sense to move the pick.  If someone thinks this is a below average to great draft, there will be an ‘all-star’ available.  I expect this to be a very good draft.  There may no longer be 5 franchise calibre players coming in (as pundits believed before), but there will be alot of talented players coming into the league.  And the Raps will have an opportunity to grab an all-star at #8.

    “there is no way to predict which player that will be”

    I have to say this is a lame argument.  How much money each year, in aggregate, does an NBA team pay their decision makers (Scouts, GMs, executives, stats guys etc) to help make decisions?  10 mil+ a team? More? How many combined hours do those guys work on the draft and scouting each year?  I can’t even begin to guess that.    So I don’t believe there is ‘no way’ to predict these things.  The bigger problem is the people who are in charge aren’t as skilled as we would like to believe they are (or wish they were), or they have a seperate agenda (usually money, job security or ego) and the result is bad decisions. 

    how many of those guys are in their position because nepotism, favortism, name or prior relationships?  How many teams make decisions based on need over BPA?  How many of those teams make decisions based on ‘hope’, or potential profitability, or looking for a specific skill?

    I fully believe there are more bad GMs in this league than good ones, and of those good ones they each have unique circumstances, and that disparity makes things like the draft appear to be ‘luck’.  Instead its a whole lot of bad or high risk decisions being made…. when simple logical choices would do just fine.

    But thats great for an individual team, because inefficiencies by some leaves great value to others.  One reason San Antonio does so well in the draft almost yearly, or signing or trading for little used or unwanted players who become very useful on their team (Matt Bonner – Danny Green – Boris Diaw – Stephen Jackson), is because other GMs do so such a poor job.  They make Bufords life easier by leaving talent available for him to scoop up.  (not suprisingly Sam Presti came from the San Antonio organization, as did Kevin Pritchard who BC passed over for  ‘yes man’ Ed who’s combined record pales in comparison to any single year of Pritchards, who just off hand works for Indiana now) 

    Unfortunately we have Mr. inefficiency, on the final year of his contract, with an ego so large it won’t allow for him to admit his mistakes running this team.  Plus his boss is the bottomless wallet organization MLSE (and by bottomless I mean there is alway room for more money). 

    Therefore forget everything I just said about someone being available at 8 for the Raps….. it will be dumb luck if BC doesn’t put Bargnani’s name in during the draft.

    • mountio

      I love your confidence in the organization.

      • Theswirsky

        They’ve given me no reason to have confidence in them

    • steve

       It’s not MLSE anymore, it’s BCE-Rogers.

      • Theswirsky

        um no. Bell-Rogers owns MLSE who in turn own the Raptors.  If was the OTPP who owned MLSE before hand.

        • Nilanka15

          I find a lot of people get confused with this.  MLSE has been the owner of the Raptors since 1998.  Nothing has changed in that regard.

          Bell/Rogers will have little-to-no say in how the Raptors are run.

        • steve

           Ahh I understand.  Thanks for clearing that up for me.

    • hater

      wow, I think you’re better off just not following the raptors anymore. I wouldn’t follow a team that I have no confidence in or any hope they ever will.

      • tiz

         He’s just sad that Jared Sullinger was red flagged with his back issues.

      • Theswirsky

        Oh I have hope they will change.  Why do you think I advocate replacing BC? 

        • CJT

          Because it gives you one more thing to complain about, and you wouldn’t feel good if you didn’t have something to complain about.

          • Tesla

            Everybody loves to complain, but you have to draw the line at some point

          • Theswirsky

            sorry I know how much people who stick their head in the sand hate to hear how the world above ground looks.

            • CJT

              just your world, not the real one.

  • voy

    there will be good players available after the 7th spot.  the trick is identifying those players and selecting them.  just because they may end up turning out to be joe mcbust vs reggie mcsolidpro is no reason to shy away from keeping the 8th pick, in my opinion.

    you shouldn’t keep the pick just because you are hoping either beals, robinson, mkg or whoever slips from the top 7 and end up in our lap.  you keep the 8th pick because there are going to be guys who turn out to become good pros selected 8th and beyond.  whether we can identify those players is another story.

    a profile of waiters, i would find interesting.  i can not understand the love for the guy.  he looks out of shape, played only 24 minutes a game coming off the bench, played in a zone in college, not a point guard, too small to be an ideal 2 guard.  i dunno. at the 8th spot i dont see it.

    i just came across these videos. pretty cool watching these guys perform for the scouts.  here is the terrance ross vid:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u682tjKdXmE

    • Nilanka15

      Hollinger has Waiters rated as the 4th best pick 😐

      • Destro

        If you went back last 5-6 drafts and look at all the picks he got wrong you’d be hesitant to co sign anything he says….

    • Paradigm Shift

       I think a profile of this Reggie McSolidpro would be interesting. I haven’t much about him. From you post, it seems that, though he is unlikely to become a “franchise player”, he could be a firm part of the core going forward.

      • voy

        i hear they are giving away McSolidpro jersies at this years RR Draft Party

        • BrainColangelo

          They should give a prize at the draft party to the person to have a McSolidpro jectile vomit.

  • sleepz

    Just because the ‘consensus’ points to a particualr group of players being the bpa, it doesn’t mean that in time that it will play out the same way.

    If you look at previous drafts as precedent, not all of the top 7 that we project currently will turn out to be good or even decent players down the road.

    MKG has vast potential, but after watching him play this year I don’t see why he is projected to be any better than T.Jones his teammate at Kentucky?

    The point I’m making is there will be good talent available at 8. Don’t trade the pick for a high priced vet that doesn’t help the team long-term. Select the bpa at 8 and plug him into Casey’s system. Hopefully, the player selected will be more Rudy Gay than Rafael Arujo, but once again, this is why you pay your GM what you do. This is his job and the one’s that are good at it select ballers.

    • Theswirsky

      but Sleepz you can only use hindsight when talking about who didn’t turn out, not when talking about who did!!!  You know that.  The guys who turn out who aren’t definetely the consensus on a random blogs mock draft are pure luck. Geez.  Get your act together.

      • sleepz

        You are right, my apologies. I will do better.

  • Fon Riego

    After First Level (Davis) and Second (Robinson, Beal, Barnes, MKG and Drummond), consensus Third Level players in this draft are: Jared Sullinger — Perry Jones — Terrence Jones — John Henson — Damian Lillard — Jeremy Lamb in no specifical order.

    Between those, Raps should choose by necessity. One of them will be out by the time the Raptors pick.

    IMO, I won’t consider Lamb (attitude and we have already DD), Sullinger (flagged) nor Henson (another PF). So I think Lillard or one of the Jones (they can play the SF should be our choice.

    Harkless, Marshall or even Teague might be considered too.

    • Konanas

      Teague < Bayless i'd rather consider Rivers

      • Fon Riego

         Teague < Bayless? I'm ok with that. But I don't see Rivers neither, he can't play the PG by no means…

        • CJT

          who said he could? 

          • Destro

            If he couldnt you wouldnt want him like alot of posters on this board do….too small anywhere else…

            • CJT

              isn’t he bigger than waiters?  Most seem ok with him

              • Destro

                I dont want Waiters either…Moot point for me.

                • hater

                  you don’t want anybody dumbass so its all moot for you to even talk about who we should pick.

                • CJT

                  I thought he wanted Tony W.

  • RaptorFan

    Keep the pick and do your best to draft the most talented or best player available (Austin Rivers or if someone in the consensus top 6 fall to us)…..Keep Bayless and give him an opportunity to play this season healthy….. i think some fans forget that our other point – Calderon has been injured numerous times as well…..Eric Gordon is another example of a player that has dealt with injuries throughout his career.  You dont give up on your talent just because of injuries!

  • Bendit

    I sense the main post is advocating trading out of the draft even before the draft is held. This is unnecessary and eliminates the opportunity which may exist if a Tristan Thompson scenario were to occur again…and maybe twice before we pick. There have been many a draft where deals occur while a team is on the clock. My preference however is we keep the pick. I consider the Raps still to be in an asset/talent gathering phase unlike the “hit the ground running” proponents. 

    • CalgaryRapsFan

      100% agree!

      I wouldn’t be surprised if BC had a variety of deals agreed upon heading into the draft, contingent on who is available at #8.  A lot of deals aren’t announced until after a specific player has been drafted, for that very reason.  For instance, he might have one deal if none of the top-7 fall, another one if Drummond falls, another one if Robinson falls, no deal if a player he likes falls, etc…

  • DC

    Dont make this hard and just draft the next durant. PJ3 PJ3 PJ3. Sike na he aint durant but he can be nice tho. He has more potential then Id take over any of the other players slotted in this spot. 

    • CalgaryRapsFan

      Or he could be the next Beasley… another talented, uncaring flameout… such a huge risk/reward type pick that could easily go either way.

      • steve

         Yeah I agree.  I think it comes down to the Raptors mental assessment of PJ3.  If Casey can see anything there, I think one has to take a shot at him.  Casey was able to get Andrea to play much better defence last year and PJ3 is far more athletic.

    • Tesla

      I support this.

  • Statement

    Just curious here,

    I don’t want the Heat to win because I am still bothered by Lebron and Sons supreme arrogance from the decision to their promising of 8 straight championships.

    As a result, I’m not really following the finals because I believe in my heart of hearts that the Sheat will win.

    Are people on the board affected the the same way I am, or do you not care either way?

    • Nilanka15

      I’d prefer the Heat never win a title, but I won’t lose any sleep if they do.  Besides, this year’s championship will have an asterisk beside it anyway (due to the shortened schedule).

      • mountio

        Not so sure about that. Unlike the other shortened season .. this year we had the best four teams in the final four (ex Chicago, who would have been there with Rose). The ball has been great .. and I dont see anything flukey about the way these playoffs played out whatsoever ..

        • Nilanka15

          I meant it literally.  In the record books, there will be an asterisk beside the 2011-12 season.

        • Nilanka15

          You’re probably right about the legitimacy of the ring.  But it’s still enough fuel for the LeBron-haters to suggest that it took less “work” to win this year compared to a full season.

          • Destro

            Theres no REAL legitimacy issue cept by Bron haters….Every team played the same number of games and had same chance to win.Whether it be 66 or 82…..Was the 99 Ship legitimate ? pure hate…..I keep reminding ppl this you ma not like the decision,you may not like them teaming up like voltron to win a ring BUT they did nothing wrong or illegal in any way….

            • CJT

              Well, that’s not necessarily true.  There is widespread belief that the Heat were in conversation with the players about this teaming up long before they were allowed to do so by NBA rules.  That would be wrong if it’s true.

              • Destro

                Cept theres no proof of that…until then its TMZ speculation….

                • CJT

                  Ya, there isn’t any proof.  But somehow don’t you think it’s true?  I mean if 3/4 of the dudes on here think the draft is rigged, you would have to believe that there was collusion.

            • Nilanka15

              Even Phil Jackson suggested that the 99 championship deserved an asterisk beside it.

              • Destro

                I think Phil’s entire coachign career needs an asterisk beside it…

      • hater

        Due to shortened schedule, due to Derrick rose’s injury, due to avery bradley being out for the celtics, and due to the refs and their phantom foul calls all going to the miami cheat, including the non-call lebron foul on durant in game 2.

        • Destro

          Avery Bradley wasnt going to effect any outcome,thats pure non sense…injuries happen in sports..could have been Wade,could have been anyone..thats not a sufficient reason to discredit any team championship….Did the refs suck last night ? Yes BUT and i say BUT
          Miami has been the better team in every game and you could argue including Game 1….

          • hater

            bradley is an amazing on-ball defender and one of the better perimeter defenders in the game, of course he would have an impact. the refs have sucked every game in the series, all calls went to miami and were momentum changer sometimes.

            also, if lebron wins the ring it doesn’t matter because he promised not 1, not 2….8 championships! lol

            • Destro

              he wasnt putting the Celtics into the finals so the point YOU’RE trying to force here is null and void…They got beat by a better team,Avery Bradleys presence wouldnt have mattered…LIke saying they lost the 2010 finals cuz of Perk….smh

    • mountio

      Whoa. You dont know what you are missing. This playoffs (and finals in particular) has been fantastic. Here is the reality .. (this was covered in a chat the other day here) .. Lebron is playing like a BEAST. Wade and Bosh are not that great. (Wade used to be .. but hes a shadow of his former self). Lebron, on the other hand .. its just flat out awesome. Offense, defense, passing, rebounding … this guy is playing like we have never seen. If he was riding the coattails of Wade / Bosh .. I can understand being upset with him. But, he isnt at all. His supporting cast is almost undeniably worse than Durants .. he is just a better player.
      I dont love the Heat either (I respect Lebron’s talent .. think Bosh is TOTALLY overpaid) – but these guys play great ball and if you are a fan, you would be watching. I think people need to get over “the Decision” and “the Rally” and enjoy the basketball. If the Heat were blowing people out because they unfairly stacked their team .. it would be harder to watch .. but its great competitive basketball where one player is overtaking everything else .. and it looks like his team will win,

      • voy

        the playoffs have been great. lebron is in beast mode.  he is easily the best player in the world.  durant is terrific but cant play the point forward position and distribute the ball like lebron can. 

        however, miami is infinately better than cleveland was.  i dont think the argument is lebron is riding coattails.  i think the argument is lebron cheapened the championship experience by bailing on his city to play with a team that would become an immediate fav to win the championship.

        • mountio

          sure – I guess thats true. Its also cheaper than him randomly choosing 4 d-leaguers and starting his own team (which I guess is the highest bar) .. but that doesnt mean its “cheap” .. and Im not sure why Lebron get held to this ridiculusly high standard.
          It also means that Shaq’s LA championships are cheapened, as are basically every player who leaves their original team in free agency and then wins a championship.
          So, if thats the paradigm that you live in, then .. yes, his championship(s) will be cheapened.

          • voy

            cant remember if i mentioned this before but I know I’m holding lebron to a higher standard than almost every other player.  I do this because he had (has?) a chance to be the greatest of all time, in my opinion. 

            watching lebron will the cavs to a championship would be like watching michael in chicago.  it would be an event that transcends sports. it would be like art.  watching lebron wreck the thunder has been something special but I think it would have been more if he did it with his original team.  just my opinion.

            • mountio

              Fair .. as you mention, the highest of high standards .. but I agree he could have been the greatest ever (might still be .. but makes the argument much tougher than it would have been had he done it in Cleveland).
              However, top 5 player of all time (where he appears to be headed .. at least top 10), aint all bad

            • CJT

              No one seems to be mentioning the utter mental collapses or OKC.  It is painful to watch the last few minutes of every game when they repeated turn the ball over, call ill advised time outs etc. etc.  They have lost games as much as the Heat have won them.

              • Destro

                oh and the coach not making any adjustments….such as leaving Collison on the bench and letting Perkins mean mug stink it up…

                • Destro

                  and to think someones gonna pay harden near max money UGH!

                • CJT

                  he is like 3 for 120 in the series.  Gross.

    • Paradigm Shift

      I am really surprised at how much trouble the Thunder are having in this series. I agreed with the many pundits who felt that any of the Thunder, Spurs or Lakers should beat the Heat. The Thunder showed so much poise against strong veteran competition in the earlier rounds, I don’t understand why they seem to be falling apart.

      Ok maybe that sounds too strong given that the last three games have all gone down to the final minutes, but these are the situations they played through in the previous rounds (against superior competition?).

      As much as I have enjoyed the totality of the playoffs this year, the longer they have gone, the more it became, for me, about who had best chance of knocking out the Heat. To that end, I went into the Western final hoping for the Spurs, but in the end, felt confident about the Thunder.

      It ain’t over ’till it’s over?

      • mountio

        The Heat play crazy D and Lebron is an all out beast. I like the Thunder better than the Heat .. but you have to appreciate greatness when you see it .. and we are seeing it from LBJ right now.

        Westbrook wasnt all bad last night either (and Durant has played very well too) .. but Lebron is simply showing them both up ..

        • Destro

          wasnt all bad ? He carried THAT team when everyone else shit there panse with the game ON THE LINE Russy showed the heart of a champion and nearly won that game solely for his team….he was ALOT better than not bad friend….dont let the bad foul at the end fool ya…

          • mountio

            Was being sarcastic .. Russ was the beast of all beasts last night .. I absolutely love him .. my favourite player in the series .. the way that dude shows up every night and plays super hard .. if he was on my time Id be at every possible game live that I could.
            However .. as a fan of the game, I have admit LBJ is showing up everyone. But Russ has made it clear hes the third best player in the series .. miles ahead of Wade at this stage in his career…

      • Reggie McSolidpro

        The real surprise is how well Miami’s supporting cast is performing.  Yes, LBJ is playing out of his mind, but he’s also had Battier step up in the first three games and now Chalmers in game four.  On the other side of the court, you have Harden turning the ball over, missing open shots, and whining to the refs.  Westbrook played just as well as LBJ, but the rest of his team (outside Durant) let him down.

    • pran

      you sir are a hater, you can’t let go of something that  players with expiring contracts have every right to do? choose another team. although they did do it in a distasteful fashion, I bet you wouldn’t have any qualms if superstars wanted to join the raptors. 

      Another thing, I find oklahoma really hard to like.  reasons: 

      1) a monkey could have done what same presti did to find success. stockpile draft picks: 1,2,3, and 5th pick. when you think about it there is no ingenuity in the way the okc team was put together. All they did to complete the picture, was take advantadge of a stupid danny ainge and trade away the 5th pick (jeff green) (which they got for ray allen) for perkins.    

      2) that stupid flopper harden, that unathletic fat fuck with that stupid way he extends the ball so far in front of him to try and draw the foul, that guy is not crafty he is slimy like a fish. It’s almost understandable why artest bashed his head in……

      • Theswirsky

        “a monkey could have done what same presti did to find success”

        absoulte nonesense.  That was straight skill and the only ones who don’t realize that are the monkeys themselves.  Durant was an ‘easy’ choice, but Westbrook and Harden had a ton of question marks and were both considered reaches.  Ibaka, outside the lottery, was on almost no ones radar.  It took years to develop that team from what they had in Seattle with smart moves, good timing and patience.  Something we don’t see enough of in the NBA.

      • Statement

        It’s not the leaving for free agency part that sticks at me, it’s the distasteful fashion with which it was done…as you mention.

        You are right though, I would love it if he had come to the Raptors.  

        In terms of superstars, I find Durant easier to cheer for (seems humble, stayed in a small market, didn’t freaking have a WWE-style press conference complete with entrance to begin his OKC career). 

        That said, I know nothing about Lebron vs Durant’s personal life (i.e. who gives to charity, who is a more humble person in their day to day affairs)

        I should be able to let it go…Van Gundy had it right when he said that there should be a moratorium on hate due to stupidity after two years.

        Still, he bugs me.

        • Theswirsky

          I think Lebron has been spoiled his entire life… but lets not forget he stayed with Cleveland after his first contract to.  Not that that is a suprise, since the existence of RFA very few players leave after their first contract.  And the proceeds to ‘the Decisions’ went to charity.

          Not to mention, I’ve always questioned…. how did people not think he would be leaving Cleveland as soon the plans for the televisions show was reached?  (if not earlier).

          Can you imagine him going on TV and saying ‘I’m staying in the same place!!’… its was anti-climatic enough as it was, having a show to announce nothing is changing would have only been more embarrassing.

      • raps

        “a monkey could have done what same presti did to find success”
        it’s that easy eh? then go apply for the job monkey boy.

    • Theswirsky

      For the most part I don’t really care who wins.

      We can dislike Lebron all we want, but he is still Lebron and its only a matter of time before he wins a championship.  I’d say its more a fluke of nature (or perhaps Clevelands terrible management) that he hasn’t yet.

      Its weird though going into this playoffs – I do as I usually do, route for the smaller market teams (OKC, SA, Memphis, Indiana) but now that the finals are here and so many people are routing against the heat and trying to tear them down… I’ve found myself routing for them.

      • Destro

        The hate does seem manufactured to me unless your in Cleveland tho….Living in T.O. why the fuck you care if Bron wins or not…..Just enjoy the greatness…

        People like to fool themselves into believing he did sumn wrong…When in actuality he is only now getting the help that all stars NEED to win titles…

        No be-grudges Magic for having Kareem,Worthy or Bird for having McHale,Parrish or Jordan for having the GOAT sidekick of all time BUT were supposed to hate bron for wanting the same thing ???

        People forget MJ back in the late 80s threatened Bulls mgmt he was gonna walk in free agency if they didnt get him some help….

        All the forced narratives about Bron really are nothing more than manaufactured hate rooted in envy,cism and amnesia….

        • voy

          Lebron carried enough weight that the stars would’ve gravitate toward him to play in cleveland. 

          Michael would have never left Chicago.  He would never give up on the challenge of winning there.  Can you imagine Jordan saying “I’m gone Chi-town.  I’m going to play in Cleveland with Mark Price and we’re bringing over Barkley as well because I cant win in Chicago”, or “I’m taking my talents to Detroit so I can play with Thomas and Dumars”.

          Neeeever, in my opinion.

          • Tesla

            +1

            Lebron joining Wade is like Bird joining Magic. Two top-5 players in the league that cannot be considered a “supporting cast” to each other. Wade is a legit consideration as a #1 option on any team, and THAT is why the hate for Lebron is different than no other.

            • Destro

              No the hate for lebron is mostly from losers who hate him cuz hes young talented and black…and doesnt live by the same rules you do…

              • Tesla

                Yeah, that’s why >.>

              • hater

                young talented and black? lol durant fits that description, no hate on him, hell a lot of NBA players are young talented and black. fuck outta here lol. lebron is an arrogant pompous ass, promised 8 championships smh. best player in the world, right now, but the guy thinks he’s MJ or some shit, not even close.

                • Destro

                  no HATE because he stayed in a small city and did what all the white journalists and fans deem to be “honourable”

                  Learn how to read between the lines…

                • hater

                  you already said why  people hate him in your own words because he’s “young talented and black” so don’t get it twisted now buddy. you said it, and you’re looking stupid cuz of it.

                • Lorenzo

                  Lol what did you expect, it’s Dipshitstro, biggest queer on the internet.

                • Destro

                  WTF ?dumbass are you even following this convo,i said why Durant doesnt get hate as opposed to Bron…

                • hater

                  ya dumbass I am following the convo and you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about as usual.

              • Statement

                I had a polite response all ready for you….but your post is idiotic so it doesn’t get one.

                • Destro

                  because ur one of those idiot fans aligned with bullshit i referred too….meh.

              • CJT

                I actually kind of agree with you.  But I also think the hatred comes from the belief that our heros do the right thing.  He didn’t and it was a wake up call to those who believed he wasn’t a self centered arrogant prick.

            • Destro

              No Bron swooped in and took HIS team,Wade isnt a No 1 anymore..hes declined that much this year…..

          • Destro

            False in fact Bosh said he wouldnt accept a sign and trade to Cleveland 2 yrs ago….FACTS are Gilbert didnt put the pieces around him so he had to make a choice at that point and he did….MJ threatened the Bulls mgmt before they got Pip that he was leaving,its documented FUCK this narrative youre tryna CREATE that MJ was some holier than thou for the good of the team type shit….Same guy who froze out Zeke same guy that had his dad killed,same guy who tried to ruin Kwame’s career and has been a scumbag for most of his playing career…Fck the MJ doing the honorable thing drivel and do some research….

            ALL those Bulls lakers celtics teams had MULTIPLE all star players to compliment MJ,Bird,Magic….

            name me a ship team that one with a lone star player and nobody else…..

            This agenda is nothing but bron hating clear and simple…Fck this what HE woulda shoulda did….Bron wants to win and he made that decision….funny thing is Wade aint a #1 co pilot anymore,Bron took his team and is carrying his suppposed ship…

            lame ass arguments

            • voy

              jordan stayed in chicago because the bulls traded their 8th pick to land the fifth pick and take pippen? wow. what amazing insight.  i bet mj will make a great gm.

              i’m not placing any moral values on jordan staying in chicago.  however, this theory of yours that he re-signed because the team traded up fom the 8th pick to take pippen with the 5th is hardly convincing.  they already had the 8th pick and they already had the 10th pick in the draft.  moving up 3 spots in the draft with one of those picks was not the reason mj stayed in chicago.

              i’m not saying you can win a ring with only one player.  however, there was no question that those teams you mentioned were Magic’s team and were Bird’s team.  They were LA and they were Boston.  Lebron was Cleveland. And he quit.  You are right though, he did nothing illegal.  But this is such an incredibly low standard to hold an elite althelte to, I dont even know what to say other than you are right.  he did nothing illegal when he decided he wanted to make it easier for himself to win a championship so he ran to play with wade and bosh.

              he would have won in cleveland.  as the talent around him improved to slightly better from complete crap he would have made those players better.  Good players in their FA years would have wanted to come to play with him.  he would have continued to have final say on all player movements in cleveland. 

              I know someone has said before “its management’s fault for pandering to all of Lebron’s wishes”.  I still think the same is being done in Miami.  You think any move in miami is gonna take place without wade and lebron’s blessing?  Riley is a strong character but he’s also a smart guy and knows who butters his bread. 

              I love Lebron.  He seems like a good guy.  However, I would rather watch Superman fight Zod and his cronies in Metropolis than watch Batman, Robin and Catwoman fight the Penguin in Gotham.

              • Destro

                What theory ? its FACT on record that he threatened to leave Chicago in ’88 if they didnt put more talent around him to beat Boston and Detroit….How they acquired that talent is irrelevant and not the point,POINT is he is no different than LeBron or any superstar in the NBA they want and need other stars to win titles…

                • voy

                  then what was the talent they acquired to keep him from leaving.  they already had the 8th and 10 pick?

        • guest

           Agree. You take James off that Cavs team that went to the finals and the would struggle to even make the playoffs. Players like Mo williams and Jameer Nelson Need to thank players like Dwight and Lebron for getting them on the all star teams. Coaches vote them in thinking when the team is winning so many games they have to have at least two all stars. You could argue Deng fell into that category this year too.

    • Destro

      Well realize if you wanna let politics effect ur rooting interest you cant win in this finals since OKC is runned by Clay Bennett who stole Seattles team out from under em…..Suddenly bron dont seem so bad by comparison…..

      • Statement

        Ya that didn’t really piss me off though.

        The “Decision” did.

    • Mapko

      I have the hind site of time. Last game was played 2 days AFTER your comment.
      Unfortunately no good news (from my point of view).
      I still believe OKC to be a much team, a team that will LEARN & come back next year much stronger.
      If on the other hand Miami wins 8 titles, one might question the existence of God.
      No justice if that is ever to happen again.

  • Hoffa

    Do a profile on Waiters please and thank you.

  • ad

    Every year teams talking about potentially trading their draft picks and maybe like one or two teams actually do it (Excluding 2nd round trades). I knew the raptors were full of shit when they were saying they might trade the 8th pick. Its hard making trades in the nba. Theyre going to keep it and likely draft a mediocre player and stay on that path to mediocrity sadly. I think they somehow need to make a trade and fleece the other team. Thats the only way the rebuilding will be accelerated. Whether thats gay or igoudala remains to be seen.

  • raptorpoo

    Call me crazy but I think we should trade up for Drummond (eg. DD, ed & next years 1st rounder for 5th OR ed & 8th pick for 5th pick). Why?

    1. A front line of bargs & val would be run over by some of the bigger & stronger front line in the NBA.
    2. We need bigs that play inside and not hang around the perimeter. 
    3. Sometimes you need to take these type of gambles to be a winner. A big man with unbelievable size & athleticism is not the biggest gamble.
    4. If you’re worried about Drummond’s intensity then I’ll ask, do you mean the same worry that you feel with bargs? or DD? both of whom we seem to be building around.

    The DD, ed & next yrs 1st rounder option would allow us to get say Andre & Lillard. We’d then trade bargs for an established sf, we could amnesty or trade Jose, take a run at Mayo or even offer a max deal for Gordon (not because he’s worth max but because we’d have the cap room to steal an allstar callibre sg).

    Lineup could look like:
    C – val (potential poor man’s duncan)
    PF – drummond (potential 2nd coming of dwight)
    SF – iggy/gay/deng or whoever
    SG – gordon (superstar in the making if his knees hold up)
    PG – lillard (sharp shooter with breakdown & passing ability)

    These are the risks you need to take to get from mediocre to championship team, me thinks.

    • Nilanka15

      Which opposing front lines are we worried about? 

    • voy

      the concern with drummond is will he ever become a basketball player with incredible athelticism instead of just an incredible athlete.  the guy has few moves and little technique.  99% of everything he gets is out of pure athleticism. 

      dd, ed and next year’s first is waaaaay too much to give up for drummond.

      if you have a starting lineup of val drummond, iggy, gordon, and lillard you are almost making it a certainty that our next year’s pick that we gave away will be a 1, 2 or 3, in my opinion.

    • mountio

      Crazy.

      I have to call you that .. because I couldnt disagree more. Drummond is exactly what we dont need .. both he hes a project with probably the most risk of anyone in the top 5 and also because we have lots of servicable 4s and 5s. We need guards and guys who can shoot. (Now .. if AD is available, TOTALLY different story .. we can trade our whole frontline for guards .. but not for Drummond). He is my nightmare guy that falls out of the top 5 and we feel we have to take him at 8 .. which I think is a mistake.

      • Nilanka15

        If Drummond falls to us, I sure as hell hope he’s traded immediately.

    • Bendit

      Val = poor man’s Duncan? Drummond = DH? Elaborate please. 

      Based on those evaluations it would have been unlikely that the Spurs tried to trade for JV/pick (reported) and Drummond would have been an undisputed 1st overall pick.

    • Tesla

      You don’t need big men anymore to be a great team. The game is getting smaller and butchering our team for Drummond is foolish.

    • raptorpoo

      I hear what you’re all saying so I’ll respond to each:

      Nilanka: We’ll have to worry about every team that has a bruising c/pf. Who do you think will guard them, val or bargs?

      Voy: UCONN and drummond didn’t fit – if that’s what your basing your scouting off. And of course we wouldn’t start with a lineup of 3 rooks. This is the future lineup and you’d surround them with vets. Why do you think we’ll have a worse record when we’re switching a starting lineup that includes DD/Jose for Gordon/Iggy/Lillard (considering bargs didn’t play that much).

      mountio: you mean guards who can shoot like DD & Jose? and I don’t want serviceable big men, I want dominating big men on both ends of the court.

      Bendit: you just being silly

      Tesla: why would we be butchering our team? by upgrading the sg position with gordon? by trading ed when we have so many pf’s already? by trading next years draft pick which looks 3~4 players deep?

      I am not saying that the players I mentioned are all going to be superstars. What I’m saying is that their potential is superstar level and you hope that half can reach that ceiling and the other half turns out decent. It’d rather take the risk rather than hope that DD magically turns out to be superstar material OR both bargs or DD can light his own fire under his arse and be a defensive monster. 

      • CJT

        If you remember correctly, Bargs has played very good individual D on guys like Dwight Howard, who I assume you would consider a big bruising C

      • Nilanka15

        I guess the point I was trying to raise was that there aren’t too many “bruising” low post players in the league anymore.  Howard, Bynum, and maybe Cousins.

        I would much rather use our draft pick on someone who can defend the athletic wings in the league, who are much more abundant than bruising bigs.

  • Al_Oliver

    Sully was never going top 8 and to think so was clearly delusional. Lamb or Waiters and possibly Drummond if he slips, should be the only 3 in contention for our pick.
    Trading the pick would be foolish. Who actually thinks that this team is close enough to compete for top 4-6 in the division? To make a deal that gets us closer to 8th, is even worse than where we are now.

  • jlongs

    Moving the pick would only make sense if we were actually getting good value in return. But somehow I’m not really optimistic about the available players out there and their price tags, as well as what it will take to move up in the draft- meaning it would most likely cost us one of our developing players for another unknown project. I’d rather take a chance at the draft, and THEN trade during the season/trade deadline if a good deal comes.

    Picking 8th will still net us a pretty good player, but it all depends on how good our management is in identifying players who are more likely to be steals than busts. Take San Antonio for example, no matter if they pick really low they still more often than not get good quality players. That’s the kind of management we need. Do we have that? I’m not sure.

    I’ve always thought we just needed to get lucky with one of our picks. It hasn’t happened so far. Though our picks turned out okay, from Bargnani to Ed Davis, they aren’t the type of players you build as your core – they just aren’t good enough for that. We need whoever we pick to be “the steal of the draft.” And that’s more luck than anything.

  • Toshmon

    MKG or Drummond might fall (Drummond & Val would be insane!)

    PJ3 might move up

  • TheDowJones

    Personally I’d like to see the raps try to trade for a second late first round pick and tackle both of their needs. Now most people will probably think I’m stupid for saying this but hear me out. The raps aren’t challenging for the finals any time soon so might has well get a few more chips to bake in the oven, in other words; with the 8th pick they shouldn’t try to draft for need but rather, best available talent remaining on the board at that pick. I think the organization hit the nail on the head this past season with adding cheap vets to fill out the roster, but what they failed to do was bring in a vet that can show these young ones how to be a pro. The closest they had to that was Jamal Magloire, but he can’t show players like Demar DeRozan when its time to be how to play the position. I say pick the best available talent at 8 then use a second 1st round pick (via trade) to draft a need, then fill out your roster with more expensive vets that have established a name for themselves who you can still pick up for a fairly decent price. People again may not like me for saying but Vince Carter and T-Mac are FA this year and wouldn’t that be a sight to see. Sure they are mere images of who they once were but they can provide things to the team more/better then players like Rasual Butler. As for who I’d like to see them draft. PJ3 at 8: I think people are sleeping on this kid. Originally he’s a top 6 talent but because of his ‘mental approach’ to the game this is scaring teams away from them?! All the kid needs is direction and who better to show the kid how to grow up better then a former NCAA college coach/recruiter and some quality vets? The raps were interested in aquiring Rudy Gay by trade, why not draft a potential Rudy Gay who I believe will be, that just so happens to fill a need at SF. On account I think PJ3 is a SF in the league and can be cheaper then trading for a huge contract in return. With the second pick why not Austin Rivers who’s a coaches son? Just an idea, but he has potential. Continue to build through the draft, aquire quality vets and be patient…………BTW is it just me or does a frontcourt of Jonas V, Andrea, Perry3 look dangerous on paper. They would help cover eachothers flaws perfectly, not to mention how dangerous the defense could be.

  • mountio

    Great Hollinger article on the Wizards stupidity for a rebuilding team. This is exactly the kind of trade I hope to hell we dont do. Pasted below cause its insider.

    The good news for Washington Wizards fans is that general manager Ernie Grunfeld is building a winner. The bad news is that he’s doing it in Minnesota and New Orleans.
    Seriously, can anyone explain why this guy is still running a basketball team?
    Grunfeld engineered yet another numbingly brutal trade today when he sent Rashard Lewis and a second-round pick to the New Orleans Hornets for Emeka Okafor and Trevor Ariza.
    The deal is classic Grunfeld — taking a “win now” approach with a team that’s not even close to win-now mode, overpaying veterans, mismanaging the cap, and basically throwing slop at the wall and hoping something sticks.
    Okafor and Ariza combine to make $42 million this year and next, soaking up all of Washington’s cap space for this year and next. The departing Lewis was due $22.7 million, but only $13.9 million of that was guaranteed, so the Wizards ate close to $30 million in salary with this deal.

    This effectively takes the Wizards out of any potential free agent deals beyond the mid-level; additionally, it also takes them out of amnesty auction bids, or cap space trades, or any other maneuvers that rebuilding teams typically take to begin stockpiling talent.

    The big impact is a year from now. Okafor has an ETO for $14.6 million after the season that he’d be nuts to exercise, while Ariza has a similar one for $7.7 million. Barring outrageous improvement by either, we can presume they’re on Washington’s books for 2013-14 at a cost of $22 million, compared to the $0 they owed Lewis; this puts them over the cap even if they amnesty Andray Blatche. (Another brilliant Grunfeld maneuver, by the way). In fact, depending on how they use their exception money the next two summers, they may need to amnesty Blatche a year from now just to avoid the luxury tax.
    For that, they get a middling but overpaid starting center, and a grossly overpaid wing defender with perhaps the worst shot selection in basketball. Alas, his only rival in that department will be starting alongside him. Which brings us to another reason to hate this trade: It did nothing to solve Washington’s biggest problem, shooting. If anything, it exacerbated it.
    This isn’t quite as awful as the deal Grunfeld made two years ago when he traded the fifth overall pick to Minnesota for Mike Miller and Randy Foye, thinking those two were the key missing pieces separating his 19-win team from the championship, but it follows the same misguided logic. He has a bad team with a bad coach and obvious, glaring weaknesses, and somehow he thinks blowing his cap space on two middling, overpaid veterans will push them to the promised land.
    By the way, if you’re taking the “they had to make John Wall happy” angle, keep in mind that he is a restricted free agent, and that by design the Wizards have all the leverage in this negotiation. Basically, no team has ever lost a player it truly wanted to keep at this stage; it’s only years later, when they could become unrestricted free agents, that we’ve seen players like LeBron James, Chris Paul, Deron Willams and Carmelo Anthony force their way out.
    This wasn’t supposed to happen when Ted Leonsis took over; he had followed a patient rebuilding program with the NHL’s Washington Capitals and everybody expected the same for the Wizards. Instead he inexplicably extended Grunfeld’s contract based on one halfway decent month to end the season while half the teams around them were tanking, and then signed off on this travesty.
    He overpaid for the assets too. Remember, a few weeks ago people were talking about how New Orleans might use the 10th pick to persuade somebody to take Okafor and Ariza off their hands? Instead they’re keeping the 10th pick and got rid of both contracts. How hard do you suppose the Hornets laughed when Washington agreed to throw in a second-round pick too?
    As for the Hornets, this was a wondrous move that offloaded two problem contracts, cleaned out room in a crowded frontcourt for rookie Anthony Davis, and gives them almost unlimited cap room going forward. Once they waive Lewis, the Hornets will be far enough under the cap that they could amnesty Jarrett Jack, offer Deron Williams a max contract, and still re-sign Eric Gordon.
    It’s unlikely D-Will would take that bait, but the real fun comes a year later when Jack and Lewis are off their books entirely; if they offer Gordon about $10 million a year, they would still have nearly $30 million in cap space. Of course, they still need to use this space to get actual players, but between trades and free agency the Hornets are in position to put a potent team around Davis fairly quickly. Also, some chap named Chris Paul will be a free agent next summer if he doesn’t extend his contract.
    Grunfeld said the Wizards are a better than they were yesterday, and in a very narrow sense he’s correct: This deal does incrementally improve his roster. But there are far more efficient ways to produce the same improvement, and instead Grunfeld has essentially handcuffed the franchise to two more years of mediocrity so he could win a press conference.

  • Koncept

    DION WAITERS please! I dont know much about him

  • Mos_jef

    This thought process of trading the pick because the available players at 8 will suck ignores the fact that the team you trade with will probably think the same, so you’re assuming that the Raptors can dupe some team in a trade. How often does that happen? Now if you said that all of the BPAs at picks 8-12 play a position that we already have filled, then I would understand trading the pick because it has less value to the Raptors than some other team. Maybe we have the C position filled with Val, but I think any other position is available, and there aren’t many centers in that range of 8-12, so who is an 8th pick more valuable to than the Raptors?

  • JHP

    Well the draft is a week away and here’s my 2 cents worth.  Have not got a clue who will be picked but

    – BC will trade the 8th pick to a west coast team
    – Will receive their pick and some vet I’ve never heard of
    – Late 1st round pick will automatically become a long term project (Joey, etc)
    – Vet will immediately get injured
    – Life goes on

    Sadly we need to win now because BC needs the team to win.  Guess that was not the case for the last 3 years.

  • Anchorman

    Lamb is going to be a bust.  If liliard isn’t there..trade down a few spots and draft Rivers. Doc’s son is going to be a star