With all the free agents re-signed (and one added) the Raptors’ roster looks to be pretty much set. They will have fourteen of fifteen roster spots accounted for (after waiving Dwight Buycks, which they are expected to do before his contract becomes guaranteed on July 20th, and officially signing James Johnson), and are right up to the luxury tax threshold.

Ujiri has been able to re-sign Kyle Lowry, Patrick Patterson and Greivis Vasquez to respectable deals, considering the market, but the only addition to the roster, outside of the draft, was James Johnson, who is on his second tour of duty with the Raptors.

[Also Listen: Raptors Weekly Podcast, July 14 – Stonewalling and Summer League]

While they only have a few players that are dramatically overpaid (Landry Fields, Chuck Hayes and Lou Williams, depending on how much he regains his pre-injury form), and none of them have offensively bad contracts, they are also slowly running out of low-priced assets. Only Jonas Valanciunas and Terrence Ross are on rookie contracts1. The fewer lower priced assets, the more difficult it is to make trades to upgrade the roster.

1. At this point, neither Bruno Caboclo or Bebe Nogueira can be considered assets, since it may be a while before either are able to even contribute to the team.

Some fans were expecting (or hoping for) the Raptors to use the full MLE (approximately $5.3 million) or one of the other exceptions the team still has on an impact veteran, but that would have taken the team above the luxury tax threshold. And while fans may feel whether or not ownership is willing to pay luxury tax as an indication of just how committed ownership is to winning, the problem with going over the threshold too early in the process is that it limits the team’s ability to improve.

Brooklyn went beyond the tax threshold like they were a contender, but they weren’t, and their ability to improve the roster is now so limited that they’ll likely not be able to improve much until 2016, when Joe Johnson’s offensively large salary will come off the books.

Even Miami’s roster languished after a couple of years over the threshold until they started having to take chances on gambles like Michael Beasley and Greg Oden because they didn’t have the means to compete for impact free agents and were restricted in trades possibilities.

Right now, the Raptors are a good team. They have talent and depth. And with the East as weak as it is, there are many who feel that now is the time for the Raptors to try and take advantage and make a run.

While the Raptors are a good team, in the East they are still behind Cleveland, Chicago (with a healthy Rose) and Indiana (it’s far too early to pronounce them dead). Washington could leapfrog the Raptors with the signing of Paul Pierce and Charlotte should also take another step forward. Brooklyn2 and Miami3 also might not be quite done yet, although the buzzards are circling. Ujiri doesn’t have a good enough roster to rest on his laurels and expect this roster to grow into an elite team. There simply isn’t enough high-level talent there.

2. If Billy King is still GM of the Nets by this time next year, then it’s proof he’s some sort of wizard. The thought of King having incriminating evidence only works until you realize that Russian owner Mikhail Prokhorov would simply have King “disappear” rather than keep him on. The Nets are in real danger of not making the playoffs next year and Atlanta has the right to swap picks in next year’s draft. They’ve got few tradable assets with any real value and won’t be under the cap again until 2016. The two teams that might be in the absolute worst position right now both reside in New York.

3. Pat Riley may have been able to keep Miami a playoff team (maybe) by all the new signings and bringing back Chris Bosh and, possibly, Dwyane Wade, but does anyone see a long term plan here? Is the idea to wait two more years and then try and sign Kevin Durant? And how long before Chris Bosh’s new contract becomes and albatross around the neck of the franchise? Two years? A month? I understand wanting to show him loyalty, but at what cost? Literally?

And the NBA isn’t a fifteen team league residing east of the Mississippi. It’s made up of thirty teams, and any team that hopes to contend needs to be measuring itself against the better teams in the West.

GOOD IS THE ENEMY OF GREAT

While the Spurs showed the advantages of roster stability, it’s much easier to keep a roster stable when you’ve got three Hall of Fame players on the roster and are title contenders every year. No one should want to go back to Bryan Colangelo’s free-wheeling days with the Raptors, but that doesn’t mean you have to stick with a roster that simply isn’t at an elite level.

When you’re playing poker, you don’t stick with a pair of sixes when you know that other players have better hands.

Ujiri will have to upgrade the roster at some point if he truly wants the team to compete for a title and not just be competitive.

There are various ways for him to do it:

THE DRAFT

Obviously the team can improve through the draft, but this year’s has passed and it’s unlikely the Raptors will be drafting in the lottery for a while, unless Ujiri decides to blow things up, which is doubtful. Caboclo has some potential, and the more I see him the more I like the pick, but you’re far, far more likely to find a role player in the latter half of the draft than a star.

INTERNAL DEVELOPMENT

The Raptors have one of the youngest rosters in the league, with Lowry being the oldest starter and he just turned 28 in March. Valanciunas is barely 22 years old with Ross not being much older, and DeRozan is a year older than him. And that doesn’t even include Bruno Caboclo, who won’t even turn 19 until September.

DeRozan is just 24, but he’s been in the league five years already, and while he’ll likely improve due to his work ethic, most guards tend to start peaking after their fifth year.

Ross may have announced himself to the league when he went for 51 points, but he simply doesn’t have the tools to be much more than a very good role player. And while Ross could end up being an excellent “three-and-D” wing player and a valuable contributor, it’s difficult to see him being anything more than that.

Valanciunas is the player with the highest ceiling, but after two seasons expectations for him have started to become a little clearer. He’s got the potential to be a good offensive and defensive player, but he simply hasn’t exhibited a feel for the game, on either end, to expect him becoming an elite scorer or defensive player.

Of course, this is why Ujiri took a flier on Caboclo in the draft. A team in need of internal development needs to raise the ceiling as much as possible, but he’s way too young and raw to even start thinking about what his future might be like.

The rest of the team, while young, is pretty much what they are. Lowry had a career year, but is 28 and is in his prime right now. Amir may be extending his range on his jumpshot, but he’s pretty much the same player he was when he first became a Raptors, except he’s fouling less.

The Raptors can become a better team without adding outside talent, but they’ll need more than internal development before they can think of becoming one of the elite teams.

FREE AGENCY

Bryan Colangelo may have been the master of the trade (or at least that was his reputation), but it was free agency that he always seemed to think would be what would turn the Raptors into contenders. When he first took over the team, he added Anthony Parker and Jorge Garbajosa as lynchpins for the team’s return to the playoffs.

And when they needed another infusion of talent, Colangelo did everything he could in order to have the cap space to sign Hedo Turkoglu.

Needless to say, free agency has been a mixed bag for the Raptors during their NBA tenure. When Turkoglu remains the team’s biggest free agent acquisition, that says a lot about the team’s ability to sign free agents. This isn’t a Toronto problem, though. One just has to look around the league today to see the danger of trying to build through free agency.

Houston struck out with just about everyone, from Carmelo to Bosh and now have settled on bringing Trevor Ariza back for another go around, which is only slightly better than the Nets, when they were still in New Jersey, striking out on LeBron, Bosh, Amare and Boozer and overpaying Travis Outlaw, only to amnesty him a couple of years later. It’s arguable whether or not they have even improved their roster after letting Jeremy Lin go to clear cap room and then deciding not to match Chandler Parsons offer sheet by Dallas.

Charlotte went all in on Gordon Hayward, giving him a max offer-sheet only to see Utah re-sign him, and I’m not sure which team is better off because of it. The Hornets then turned to Marvin Williams, paying him the same as Amir Johnson will be making this season which is probably not the best use of cap space.

Chicago looked like the favourite for Carmelo, and then had thoughts about going after Wade and ended up settling on an aging Pau Gasol and hope his recent decline will be halted (or at least slowed) by playing on a winning team again.

0

I know a lot of Raptor fans have high hopes for signing Kevin Durant when he will becomes a free agent in 2016, but they’ll be bidding against half the league (at least) including his current team, the Thunder, and his hometown team, the Wizards (who will have plenty of cap room then), as well as, most likely, Miami, New York, the Lakers, Dallas and San Antonio. And that’s only counting the heavy hitters.

One big problem that is rarely discussed with having a free agent as the cornerstone of the franchise is you’re relying on a player who has already shown a willingness to leave a team if the situation is not optimal. Miami rented LeBron James for four years, but when he saw himself surrounded by a roster that he didn’t was feel good enough to continue to compete for a title, he felt no loyalty towards the organization that signed him away from another team.

While Bosh re-signed with the Heat, they had to pay him the max to do it after he had all but decided to sign with Houston if James left.  Expecting to wait on Wiggins is an exercise in extreme patience, considering there’s little reason to believe he will even be a free agent until 2021. That’s simply too far in advance to even contemplate planning for.

What free agency is good for is to fill holes in a roster that already has most of the pieces in place. That’s how San Antonio became the deepest team in the league and how teams like the Clippers and Portland are attempting to get to the next level. Free agency is a good place to find role players, but beware of trying to find stars there.

TRADES

The final way to improve a roster is through trades.

There’s a reason players, especially on non-contenders, are commonly referred to as assets. As I said earlier, the Raptors are a good team but in order to improve the roster and try and build a legitimate contender, Ujiri (or the fans) can’t get too emotionally attached to any player on the roster.

Because the team lacks an elite player, there isn’t a player on the team that should be off limits in a trade. Not DeRozan, Lowry, Ross, Amir or even Valanciunas4.

4. While I don’t think Valanciunas is untouchable, due to his age, potential and the fact he plays such a difficult position to fill with a quality player, he’s the last player on the team I would consider trading and it would have to be for a guaranteed great player.

The way to build through trades is to buy low and sell high. Find undervalued players and trade away players whose value is at it’s highest. Unfortunately, Raptors history is full of doing the complete opposite.

Andrea Bargnani was kept far, far too long until an overpaid three point shooter and a couple of conditional second round picks seemed like a steal for him. Vince Carter was traded a year too late. And the Raptors gave up a second pick in the draft, who went on to win Defensive Player of the Year and is still playing in the league today, for a 36 year old whose best days were behind him, only to trade him away for basically nothing three years later5.

5. You won’t find many Raptor fans who didn’t love the trade for Charles Oakley (as well as a similar one for Antonio Davis), and it did certainly help them in the short term, but Glen Grunwald mortgaged the team’s future and it eventually came back to bite him in the ass. And he tried the same thing in New York only to see it also eventually fail.

While Raptor fans would obviously like to see trades like the Clippers did for Chris Paul, or what Houston did for James Harden, it’s uncommon that elite players come on the market, and it’s even rarer that those players don’t end up choosing their destination.

No one is going to trade for Kevin Love if he doesn’t express and interest in re-signing with them. Before LeBron James went back to Cleveland they weren’t in the running for Love, yet now they’re a favourite.  But that’s not to say trades aren’t a viable option to improve a roster. One just has to look at the Rudy Gay trade to see that.

The goal should be to find players who are undervalued for some reason. Indiana traded away a 31-year old Dale Davis for a 21-year old Jermaine O’Neal who couldn’t get off the bench in Portland. Even Toronto got Kyle Lowry at a discount. It’s always a gamble, and sometimes it doesn’t pay off, but it can pay off huge at times. O’Neal went on to play in six All Star games and appear on three All NBA teams. Davis was a decent veteran presence in Portland, but was nowhere near the player O’Neal became.

Anthony Bennett had one of the worst rookie seasons for a number one pick in NBA history, but surgery and other medical problems caused him to come into training camp overweight and Cleveland handled him extremely poorly, basically destroying any confidence he might have had. We’ve seen in the summer league how an in-shape Bennett could play, and he might be someone that could be had in a trade.

Of course there are other undervalued players out there that the Raptors should be looking at, like Terrence Jones or Perry Jones.

ARMCHAIR GM TIME

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If there was a time for the Raptors to try and trade for Andrew Wiggins it would be right now. Draft picks like Wiggins are available so rarely it would be a crime for them not to go for it.

LeBron James choosing to go back to Cleveland might end up being the most fortunate thing to happen to Toronto. I realize that Cleveland’s new coach, David Blatt, recently stated that Wiggins won’t be traded, but that should be taken with a grain of salt. A trio of James, Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving would give any team a run for their money. Wiggins looks like he could be a special player, but Love IS a special player right now, and the Cavaliers won’t have to wait a few years for him to develop. James will turn 30 next season and I’m not sure Dan Gilbert would be comfortable waiting for Wiggins to turn into the player many assume he will.

As for Minnesota, they would definitely take Wiggins back if offered, but from what I gather Flip Saunders isn’t thrilled with the prospect of a) losing more games and waiting two or three more years to make the playoffs and b) gambling that Wiggins will turn into an elite player. While Cleveland doesn’t have an All Star that they would be willing to part with (Irving obviously isn’t going anywhere), Toronto does.

If the Raptors can facilitate a trade, giving up DeRozan, Amir (to Minnesota) and possibly Terrence Ross (and his rookie contract going to Cleveland) and get back Wiggins and either Bennett or Tristan Thompson (with the other going to Minnesota), as well as agree to take back Kevin Martin and possibly another oversized contract from Minnesota to sweeten the deal, the Raptors become a younger team with a higher ceiling. And they are still able to compete for a playoff spot6.

6. And this trade also doesn’t prevent the Raptors from trying to sign Durant in 2016. In fact, Wiggins would be a better fit beside Durant than DeRozan would be, as Wiggins can handle the tough defensive wing assignments, something DeRozan wouldn’t be able to do.

Minnesota can continue to compete for a playoff spot and get back a legitimate All Star in return for Love, and are able to hit the ground running next season with a deeper team.

Cleveland gets Love and a new superstar team, but also Terrence Ross, a young shooter who can play defense on an affordable contract and someone who would compliment James and Irving.

Would trading three-fifths of the starting lineup of a 48 win team for a rookie who hasn’t played a minute in the NBA and a few role players be a major gamble? Sure. But great teams become great through either incredible luck (like San Antonio missing the playoffs three times in 30 years and happen to win the lottery two of those times when David Robinson and Tim Duncan were available) or by taking huge risks (like Jerry West trading a top ten center in his prime for a rookie selected 13th in the draft AND trading away decent players for nothing on the off chance Shaquille ONeal would leave a contender in order to sign with his team), or a combination of both.

Trading away a well-liked and respected All Star in DeRozan, an efficient, athletic big man who loves the city in Amir, and a nice young prospect in Ross, for Wiggins and whoever else they would get would definitely be a risk. But it’s a risk I think the Raptors need to try and take.

  • Azih

    Oh man are we talking about blowing up the team AGAIN?
    Let’s wait and see how much of a step forward Ross and Valanciunas take this year to see what we actually ahve before getting trigger fingers.
    In any case I’m glad we’ve got the patient Ujiri in charge who wouldn’t do anything like this because this seems like some crazy ‘swing for the fences’ Coangelo type nonsense.

    • R.U. Effin Serious

      Don’t tell me you’re bringing up tanking, AGAIN!!! After a year like we had??? See, this is why some peopledont fool me on here. You come off smart but say some king crowned stupid shit like this!!! Crush developing young players’ confidence so the NBA2K possessed “fans” like you guys can feel better?? Be realistic for once. Smmfh. WACK!!! We need consistency and sumn to build on. Buuuut, you wanna break shit down and start over. Stupid as hell expectation.

      • raptormania

        But the raptors just got lucky last year. Plus everyone tanking last year which elevated Toronto in the standings. This year with more of the league trying there is no way the raps finish so high. A brilliant GM would note that there are very few teams tanking this year and so a hard tank in 2015 will give the raptors the chance at a very good pick. And with all the cap coming off the roster next year, the raptors can take on bad contracts for draft picks or elite prospects.

        • jjdynomite

          “This year with more of the league trying there is no way the raps finish so high.”

          Ah, yes, another NostraDICKmus along with TimmyDub. Bring on the “HARD TANK” (whatever the hell that means).

          You want predictions? Given the off-season transactions to date, here are mine:

          Cleveland – BETTER THAN LAST YEAR
          Chicago – BETTER THAN LAST YEAR (*if* Rose stays healthy. That’s a pretty big “if”.)

          Then:
          Indiana – WORSE THAN LAST YEAR
          Miami – WORSE THAN LAST YEAR
          Brooklyn – WORSE THAN LAST YEAR
          Washington – SAME AS LAST YEAR (Although Ariza is 7 years younger than Pierce)
          Charlotte – SAME or WORSE THAN LAST YEAR
          Atlanta – SAME or WORSE THAN LAST YEAR
          New York – SAME or WORSE THAN LAST YEAR

          And of course:

          Detroit – WILL STILL SUCK
          Boston – WILL STILL SUCK
          Orlando – WILL STILL SUCK
          Philadelphia – WILL STILL SUCK
          Milwaukee – WILL STILL SUCK

          Please correct me if I’m wrong. And let me know what other teams will trade “elite prospects” along with bad contracts unless those GMs want to get fired. I have a feeling Masai has a better idea on what to do with the $20 or so million of Fields/Hayes/Williams coming off the books at the end of the season than you do.

          • afrocarter

            Atlanta will certainly do better upon Horford’s return, and if we expect Toronto to do better this year, we should expect the same from Charlotte, Washington, and Detroit. Nobody wants a tank, but we also need to realize that the Raptors still have a ways to go before they’re legit contenders.

      • R.U. Effin Serious

        Azih, my post was directed at the writer, not you. My apologies, bruv.

        • Azih

          Yeah I got that. No worries mang.

    • Tinman

      It would be hard to disagree with swinging a deal for Wiggins. I’d through Jonas in.

    • speechless

      Sadly, Timmy is serious, and actually thinks he’s being clever and knowledgeable. I always appreciate alternative points of view, but foolish/dumb/stupid/ignorant-of-what-MU-is-doing has no value.

  • Raptorize

    Really???? Trade away proven players for unproven ones?? Try selling that to the fanbase…

  • Troopa

    Good read. I had the same thought process. I must say I love how the team is currently built. And I must say I wouldnt mind seeing the Raps in the playoffs year after year like ATL because weve missed the playoffs so much I would be content with a 45-50 win team….BUT this is not a championship team – as sad as it sounds. If the Raps are serious about winning a championship they must strike when the iron is hot! We have the best chance to get Wiggins now that Lebron has returned to Cleveland. First off thats not a good fit with how Cavs are structured now. They are better off with K.Love. 2nd off Raps can offer a good enough package to get this deal done. I dont know what the package should look like but Wiggins shoukd be our new target. I say go all out to get him. #wethenorth

    • Minks77

      I agree this is a middle of the pack team with a limited ceiling but I think getting Wiggins is a pipe dream.

      If it were possible, well “in Masai we trust”, right?

    • KickPuncher

      A trade for Wiggins is not happening. After all that Masai has said about continuity going into this season, why would he go after an unknown? Why would he break up what was a successful formula last season? This whole discussion is silly. If we’re even remotely serious about contending for a championship, we need a superstar. No argument there. Wiggins is not that yet.

      • 2damkule

        agree, a trade like the one proposed isn’t happening, but only because MIN would want more back.

  • rapman

    I like the plan by Tim here. It is one step back to take three or four steps back in a couple years. And the big added bonus is that it allows the raptors to tank this season and maybe next to maximize the draft pick.

    • DanH

      I don’t even know that they miss the playoffs… Lowry, Wiggins, Johnson, Patterson, JV is a pretty solid starting group. Throw in Vasquez, Williams, Fields, Caboclo, Hansbrough, Hayes and BeBe and you’re probably still fighting for a playoff spot in the East.

      • LuckyMystery

        According to his proposal we would also get kevin martin and of Bennet or Thompson. I would be ok with this

  • Tinman

    I think the Lebron signing turned the East into an unknown. Would put the Cavs as the early favourites, rookie coach and all.
    You mentioned the Wizards as one team that can leap frog a few teams but a good argument can be made that the Raptors are both deeper and more talented, and just as young. Don’t underestimate your home team.
    No mention of continuity.
    I appreciate you trying your best to not come across as pessimistic…….. not quite there yet

  • Eric

    This is so stupid.. I wasted valuable bathroom reading time on this poop..
    How do they even let you contribute?

    Your view of this team is so wrong. I think you do this on purpose.
    You have been bashing Derozan for years, yet he has proven to break his so called “ceiling” every season.

    Jonas.. Dont even get me started.. Waste of my time even writing this…

    • R.U. Effin Serious

      Absolutely co-sign this. Get a better writer who isn’t playing NBA2K while writing “articles”. Stupidest shit since the signing of Arujo. Next!!!!

      • WhiteVegas

        Why Why Why do they keep letting Tim W. write these pieces?

        Things couldn’t possible be going any better for the Raptors, and here comes Tim W. again with another tank piece. We could go to the NBA Finals and lose in 7 games and the next day Tim W. would post a piece about how we have to blow it up and tank. Hell, I’m pretty sure we could win the NBA Finals and he’d argue it was a fluke and we have to blow it up.

    • Tinman

      Then why do you read it.
      Tim is a few things, but not stupid.

      • SR

        Tim had a bit of a hiatus, so I wanted to give him a clean slate but quit a few paragraphs in. Nobody else on this site writes so much while saying so little. Please thank this guy for his past work, buy him a cake, and move on.

      • c

        tim is stupid

    • afrocarter

      Wait, what? This was a down-to-earth, sobering, extremely rational read. What exactly is wrong with Tim’s view of the team? You don’t have to agree with his GM pitch, but you can’t argue that it wasn’t well though out.

    • Mugsy

      Calm down. Some Raptors fans on here are so sensitive. A guy isn’t allowed an opinion? I disagree with most of what he wrote, but love the fact that RR has someone with a different point of view writing stuff once in a while. That’s what websites like this are for. We have ONE winning season in I don’t know how long and everyone is supposed to be in love with the team. RELAX guy

      • doncity

        Everyone IS supposed to be in love with the team this summer – if you don’t like what’s going on you’re either a hater or a troll so choose one. Tim W is a joke, he has nothing useful to say about the team and let us remember this – if we took his way out last year, none of the great thrills we experienced this winter and spring would have taken place. Stank Nation smelled bad from the first day they crawled out of their advanced stat sheets. I knew it, I said it and I took the abuse, and I was right. The Raps had game after all.

        Tim W needs to just retire. Admit you suck, OK? Just admit you know even less than the rest of us.

    • Jamshid

      Hahahhaha :) I read the first 2 lines of this article and knew Tim W. is going to get hammered for it :) Lets face it, RR prefers writers like William Lou and A.Thompson who see everything being PERFECT and all :)

      • DDayLewis

        Sure, pigeon-hole mine and Andrew’s opinions into your little narrative. We never critique the team.

        • Jamshid

          RR loves to critique the Coach :) but scrub and rotational players or the GM :) NEVER :) This is why BC was able to be here for 7 years and except for Arsenalist and Sam ( old school writers of the site), all the new guys were backing him up till last days. Check the articles :)

          • DDayLewis

            Lol I’ve never praised Colangelo for his work with the Raptors. Not sure what you’ve been reading.

    • JoJo

      totally agree. We have “no elite players” but we’re going to trade DD plus others for Wiggins. I guess getting selected to an all star team isn’t elite status. I don’t get what DD has to do to earn his props. The guy plays hard, improves every year and gives us offence. What more do you want. We need to stop thinking he’s LJ or Kobe or MJ. Accept him for what he is and move on, the guy is an all star! gets us 20 a night but that isn’t enough because you expect him to also get 15 boards, 10 assists, 3 blocks and 2 charges.

      Rodman was a great rebounder and defensive player, but very few people criticized him for not dropping 20 a night. Some players have offensive skills, some defensive and some a little of both or a lot of one and less of the other. Accept it, There are very few who do everything and there is only one LJ, KD, Kobe, etc.

  • jjdynomite

    This says it all:
    “Ross may have announced himself to the league when he went for 51 points, this past season, he simply doesn’t have the tools to be much more than a very good role player.”

    — So says TimmyDumb. Why don’t you go on the Spurs’ board and start sucking their dicks, instead of continuing as the Ultimate TrollBlogger on RaptorsRepublic?

    First of all, that above quote makes no sense. Everyone — including myself — was concerned T-Ross was a waste of a pick after his underwhelming rookie season, but he came through to be a valuable rotation player (and #19 in the NBA in three pointers made) in his sophomore year. But to you, NostraDICKmus, he “simply doesn’t have the tools”.

    Yet for some reason, because you may have stalked some Brampton pickup games in your most recent visit to Toronto, Wiggins is worth trading Ross, AND DeRozan, PLUS Amir for?!? No, this is not “What’s Next For The Raptors”, as the article title states. Thank goodness you’re not in charge.
    On a macro level, fuck you and your “risks”. The Spurs franchise got hugely lucky suffering a major injury to Hall-of-Famer David Robinson in Duncan’s draft year, but for you, that’s a “risk”. Did Cleveland take a “risk” drafting Bennett and signing Bynum and Jack and trading for Deng, and then undeservedly landed the #1 pick and Wiggins with the 9th worst record — or maybe they got lucky? Well, it maybe was a risk to their Coach and GM, since they were fired. At least we know what team you’ll be cheering for going forward, you front-running dickhead.

    /go write for another team, please, you faux-Canadian

    • R.U. Effin Serious

      This!!! x2000000

    • c_bcm

      I think I might agree with some of your comments, but its hard to navigate through the vitriol. Lets try to keep it civil around here. Stay away from personal attacks. While this comment is well-reasoned, it is far too inflammatory to be taken seriously. Unfortunately, these sorts of comments are what ruins this site for me, not articles my Tim W. At least they are conversation starters.

      • jjdynomite

        Sorry, c_bcm, when I comment on a yoga board I will maintain equanimity. Unfortunately, this is a Raptors fan site and I’ve asked Zarar numerous times why he gives TimW the soapbox of writing “articles” on RaptorsRepublic that do nothing but troll his readership.

        I’ve had issues with Tim for years; what he does is just not right. Tim lives on the West Coast, he has no season’s tickets or partial season’s tickets like I and many commenters on this board do, and so he has zero investment other than being inciteful (maybe he was a Grizzlies fan?). To compare us long-suffering Raptors fans with the Spurs over and over and over again, or to advocate trading half our team to attain his latest project, or, prospect, is ridiculous. This is maybe his 20th article over the past 2 years that prescribes just that. I’m sorry, but trading 3/5th of our starting line-up for Wiggins is an insult to fans who appreciated the mostly-natural growth of a quite young team of last season, and want to see it through.

        Moreso, Tim;s writing style is humourless, dull and one-note (tank. Tank! TANK!). As opposed to Garrett or Tamberlyn or William or Blake or Zarar himself, who offer balance and humour and at least some semblance of optimism towards the direction of the team.

        And no, this article is not a “conversation starter”, unless you consider 100+ angry comments “conversation starters”. If that’s the case, then RaptorsRepublic “wins”.

        • c_bcm

          OK buddy. Keep in mind that you are not the only Raptors fan on this site. I have young kids that like to visit the site, and I am sure other children do to. So try to keep that mouth you might kiss your mother with cleaner.

          To think you have moral dominance over someone because of where you live speaks to your ignorance and only strengthens my resolve to call out people like you who spout personal attacks on message boards like this.

          We are all Fans of the Raps on this site, and I would just like to see us treat each other with more respect. Keep in mind that its not articles like Tim W’s that get people banned, its off-the-wall, and (what I can only hope was an off-the-cuff) comment like yours that do. You can ask Matt….aka McHappy, all about it…

          • jjdynomite

            I never said I was the “only Raptors fan on this site” — au contraire, I was calling out TimW for *NOT* being a Raptors fan — either geographically or ideologically — yet he continues to have the privilege of posting his anti-Raptors bloviations that upset this blog’s readership. If you have trouble with reading comprehension that is not my problem.

            Neither it is my problem that you have parenting issues if your innocent children see a swear word or two on a basketball team fan site’s comments area. I don’t know who Matt or McHappy is but if he was “banned” due to pickle-up-their-arses like yourself, I feel sorry for the guy. Go censor yourself, kool-aid face.

            • DDayLewis

              C’mon man, dude is just asking you to be civil. You’re right – any kid who has access to the internet has seen everything from swear words to weird porn – but try to respect other people on this site. Quite often, you contribute to discussion (which is great), but you bookend your points with personal insults. Just try to keep the latter to a minimum.

              • jjdynomite

                Sure Will, I will try to tone it down, but please tell Zarar that Tim’s “articles” do not live up to a “Win or Lose. Here We Stand” environment that RaptorsRepublic takes care to foster in pretty much every other article. Tim’s missives are pedantic, repetitive and about as truthful as asifyouknow’s postings that Lowry and Vasquez’s departures are imminent.

                Tim’s exhortations to trade half the team in the hope that Wiggins will become the next JordanKobeLeBronDurant is insulting, and as Trini wrote below, Tim even downplayed Wiggins earlier in the year in favour of Jabari Parker.

                Fans grow attached to players — especially young players — that try hard and work to improve, and even moreso if they rep the city through words and deeds (Kyle, DeMar, T-Ross, JV, Amir, Vasquez, etc.). If this was an aging team like the Nets or Celtics I would be amenable to listening to Tim’s “blow it all up” philosophy, but nowhere has this team reached its peak with a bunch of 23-28 year olds littering the roster — with only 1 full season of playing all together. For Tim to claim otherwise makes him look ignorant — and us look like dupes for trying to make it through his “articles”. Why does Zarar enable this?

                • DDayLewis

                  I certainly understand why you’re upset. Personally, I don’t think the proposed move makes much sense given the team’s direction (in a vacuum, it’s a different debate; there’s context to consider), but it’s something that Tim chose to write about. He likes taking big-picture view at the franchise, and until he sees fit that the team lands a transcendental talent, the team’s direction will always be flawed. That’s his belief, and he’s repeated it on many occasions.

                  I can’t speak for Zarar, but Tim’s a talent writer in my opinion, and he puts a lot of thought and effort into crafting pieces and I respect him for that. I almost always disagree with his assessment on things, but he does about it fairly. People can disagree on things.

                • MoPeteRules

                  I’ve heard people say Tim’s a talented writer, but I have to disagree. I think he’s an average writer, with a very speculative mindset. But I thought this article especially sucked, because here’s what he stated in the article to begin with:

                  “The Raptors can become a better team without adding outside talent, but they’ll need more than internal development before they can think of becoming one of the elite teams”

                  OK, so he’s saying we should add more talent if we seriously want to consider being better. But are you talking about right now? Or in five years?

                  “Right now, the Raptors are a good team. They have talent and depth. And with the East as weak as it is, there are many feel that now is the time for the Raptors to try and take advantage and make a run”

                  So he’s talking about right now! We’re good, he says, but not good enough to win it all. So we need to upgrade! So how can we do this?

                  “Of course there are other undervalued players out there that the Raptors should be looking at, like Terrence Jones or Perry Jones”.

                  Wait what? We’re good, but if we add Terrence or Perry Jones (not of the same Mama) we can get better. Anyone else?

                  “We’ve seen in the summer league how an in-shape Bennett could play, and he might be someone that could be had in a trade”.

                  And then he also notes an NBA 2K14-esque trade proposal for Andrew Wiggins which sends away DeRozan, Amir and T-Ross. It’s clear that Wiggins is a nice prospect, but how does adding him at the expense of such valuable current contributors turn this team into a stronger contender? And are the keys to the Eastern conference finals really in the hands of Terrence or Perry Jones? That’s why people respond so negatively to Tim’s articles, he just makes up stuff and dresses is up as something insightful. And one more thing, this line really bugged me:

                  “When you’re playing poker, you don’t stick with a pair of sixes when you know that other players have better hands”.

                  To compare the current roster of our team to a losing poker hand is the opposite of well thought out, it just makes no sense. This is a team that has a young, hard working, respected core. This is a team with lots of cap space in 2015, and an ever improving reputation around the league. It’s just an unnecessarily pessimistic view point. Just like there was a Dumbledore fan club webpage, and there was one writer on the site who always wrote about how much he thinks Dumbledore was a piece of shit, that’s how Tim W’s work rubs fans the wrong way.

                • afrocarter

                  It’s not that Tim’s arguments don’t make sense — it’s just that they don’t make any sense to you. Comprehension, kids. Step your games up.

                • Bravo2

                  Combined with jjdynomite’s above post, bingo! Thank you

                • sleepz

                  What is the teams’ direction though? if it’s to win rings you need the talent to do it.

                  Trading for AW is a bold move but it is no different than the drafting of Bruno. You need elite talent and the draft and trades are the most likely the ways for Raps to find that.

                  Btw, if Cavs sent me AW and Bennett, Derozan and company would be gone in a heartbeat. I’d want to keep Amir in that proposed deal but Ross and DD would be gone immediately if Cavs were dumb enough to accept that offer. Bennett is a man child and in a few years those criticizing him last year (rightfully so) will have their minds changed for them. I think Wiggins ceiling is sky high.

                • Trini

                  How exactly is trading 3/5ths of a good, young NBA starting lineup for 2 prospects the same as using a 20th pick on 1? Man.. Some of these comments lol

                • sleepz

                  Because I would rather try for great than simply good. I also prefaced it by saying I would not want to include Amir, but I would be 100% fine with DD and TR being traded for younger players with higher upside. I also don’t see this team winning 48 games again this season.

                  Some fans are content with the ‘Hawks philosophy of team building’ and making the playoffs and there is nothing wrong with that if that’s what you like rooting for. I’m not one of those.

                • Trini

                  Not sure where you gathered your evidence that I don’t want the raptors to win a championship, and I’m content with just making the playoffs. All I said was using a 20th pick isn’t the same as trading away 2-3 proven young players. Go back to sleepz

                • lamecompare

                  Comparing what the Hawks did to where the Raps are, demonstrates an ignorance of how the Hawks drafted and managed their team, but I guess ignorance is bliss when one needs a tired treadmill cliche/chant to support one’s “I have higher standards than you fools” narrative, also very tired..

                • DDayLewis

                  That’s fine in a vacuum, but it’s not even a realistic option given the context. The Raptors are building everything on this past season. The Cavaliers just expended two no. 1 picks on those two. It’s purely fantastical.

                • sleepz

                  I don’t disagree with what you’re saying.

                  Hypothetically, if the opportunity presented itself (which it won’t) I would do it quickly.

                  I don’t put as much stock into last seasons results as a lot of other fans currently do.

                • CJT

                  Interesting perspective, how many core pieces did we give up for Bruno? I think trading for Wiggins is a whole lot different than drafting pure potential.

                • sleepz

                  Didn’t give up any core pieces for Bruno and I think he is a bigger risk than most. I brought up Bruno as an example of the mentality that I think Masai has (acquiring a star), however I think AW and AB are not projects like BC.

                  If I can give up good and decent players, (Derozan, Ross) for players I think have the ceiling to exceed that, I’m doing it. I think AW has a much higher ceiling than Derozan and he’s already a much better defender. Bennett I think also has much higher upside and potential than Ross.

                • Jamshid

                  “Win or Lose. Here We Stand” Since when RR has this slogan ?? Win or loss we are the supporters of the team but not the GM or Coach if they keep on losing. Get used the hearing opposite views and enjoy freedom of expression.
                  Censorship is never the answer. You enjoy censorship and fascist behaviour, join the message board. Here some of us enjoy reading well balance argument from different point of the view.

                • jjdynomite

                  Are you high? Nobody except for Dough (sic) Smith is uncritical of the GM (or Coach) if they keep on losing, especially on RaptorsRepublic. Frequent writers like Will, Andrew and Sam who do the game recaps are quite critical of Casey, even during this past winning season.
                  I’d like to think Masai gets a pass since he’s done pretty much everything well in the past year. But to dimwits like TimW. nothing is enough if there isn’t that “transcendent” talent. But then he brings up the Spurs, whose transcendent talent, Tim Duncan, hasn’t been transcendent in like 5 years, and the best players on this Finals team were Kawhi, a 3rd-year defense-first player, and bench guys like Mills and Diaw. Why? Because they play LIKE A TEAM. Well, we have a team here that is young, still-growing, and plays team ball… a team that TimW advocates blowing up. In other words, Tim makes no goddamn sense at all other than flaming Raptors fans. But to you, this is a “well balance[d] argument”. Thus I ask, are you high?
                  By the way, I am the last person to advocate “censorship and fascist behaviour” (whatever that means on a fucking basketball fansite comments board), but I am one to call out wilfully ignorant articles like Tim’s. And posts such as yours.

                • 2damkule

                  wow.

                • Dr. Scooby

                  yeah yeah yeah, you like the team the way it is. W E G E T I T already.

                • afrocarter

                  The Spurs won because they have three 1st-ballot HOFers and Kawhi – who realized his potential at being the 3rd best SF in the game (he’s better than Paul George, face it). Their top 5 players each have more talent than anybody on the Raptors. And, yes, on top of all of that, they played like a team.

                  Nevertheless, that Toronto still needs more talent is a given. As presently constructed, we can’t get past the Clevelands & Chicagos of our conference. That’s not too hard to understand, is it?

                • Jamshid

                  Obviously your actions and your tone speak older that your words. You have attacked the writer of this article on personal level for putting forward a eel thought article just because you do not agree with his views and claimed that it has no place in RR. That my friend is asking for censorship. Calm Down and enjoy reading a well written article and let the other voices be heard as well.

                • Tuneyain

                  I agree with your arguments so far. The Terrence Ross criticism was not plausible. Neither was the writers assessment of the players so-called “ceilings”. If anything, the Spurs proved the importance of developing players, and cultivating a system, which places teamwork above everything. Blowing up a team for the pursuit of a franchise player is the complete opposite of the Spurs, or Popovich philosophy.

                • afrocarter

                  The Spurs traded George Hill for draft rights to Kawhi Leonard — a move that was unpopular in San Antonio at the time.

                • Tuneyain

                  I don’t see the relevance, trading for Kawhi Leonard wasn’t blowing up the roster for a superstar. Leonard was scouted and loved by the Spurs management. I’m sure the Spurs fans can accept that this was a beneficial trade on the long run.

                • afrocarter

                  This is the argument Tim is making, however: regardless of how unpopular the move (in this case, trading a combination of DeRozan, Amir, and Ross) may be perceived presently, sacrificing in order to acquire a player that Raptors management believes in can pay dividends in the long run.

                • sleepz

                  Spurs have 3 HOF’ers (I’m assuming Manu will get in).

                  Spurs already have the talent on the roster and can build around it. Raps and Spurs are not comparable talent wise.

                • Tuneyain

                  I wasn’t making a comparison of talent. I was explaining how restarting this roster, abandoning the development of our young talent for a superstar would not bring this team closer to a championship. And that the Spurs proved to the entire league this year the importance of long-term development of rookies, the importance of role players, and a balanced offensive attack.

                • sleepz

                  But you compared them to the Spurs roster. Spurs already have stars on their team and can build and mould their young players to fit with the stars they have.

                • mase34

                  Agree

                • Bravo1

                  Right on. Add “MoPeteRules” post below, and we have it in a nut shell.

              • dunkmycat7

                Why don’t you guys show some stones and just ban this misanthropic moron. He is a disgusting gutless self serving Fascist who thinks that any other opinion except his own is an excuse to spew his vile garbage. Let this troll loose in the real world and someone will fuck him up EVERY single day if he dared talk like that.
                As interesting as the interaction on RR can be – I’m pretty much done with this site because of him and his incessant garbage.
                Have a nice life RR.

                • Dr. Scooby

                  you’re like a troll who trolls trolls

                • CJT

                  He’s a Troll’s Troll.

                • DDayLewis

                  You too, dunkmycat7. We’ll miss you.

            • TRoss1000

              Calm down, he’s has no weight when it comes to personnel decisions, he’s just a beat writer. Thankfully real basketball minds (Masai) are calling the shots so it’s not worth popping a vain over.

              • jjdynomite

                Thank you for your concern, but I am not as upset as I may have come across in my earlier posts. I thoroughly acknowledge that TimW has no influence at MLSE, or else his nickname would be TimL and if TimL harboured those same sentiments we would truly be fucked as a fan base.
                One correction, though, TimW is not a “beat writer”. As someone who used to be in the journalistic field, a “beat writer” refers to a well-sourced writer or reporter, as s/he covers the same topic in depth. The only source TimW has is his asshole, as that is what he talks out of.

                • TRoss1000

                  Stupid debate which has nothing to do with the topic of the Toronto Raptors or basketball, but if I may, beat writing is defined as “The craft of in-depth reporting on a particular issue, sector, organization or institution over time.” I understand you have a strong hatred for his work, but he covers the same topic (Raptors) in depth, as you put it. You can’t argue that, right or wrong he may be. Either way I agree he doesn’t seem to know much about basketball in a realistic sense.

          • raptorstand

            I would like to reply to you and your ten up votes. Take your holier then thou BS to some other site . This Tim W. guy is the biggest douchebag writer I have ever read. You come on here and start talking about fing kids ?? If you havnt parented your kids to understand that a little cussing on the internet when talking sports might happen , then child services needs to visit you and take your kids so they can sell them to the elite pedophile rings that will talk real nice to them . jjdynimite is a great fan , whos opinion I respect , you on the other hand are everything I hate in a person , arrogant , I know better then you , I think im talking for everybody BS. Go monitor your kids play ground , leave us fans to discuss douchebags.

            • c_bcm

              You totally missed the point of my comment. But thanks for your opinion.

              • raptorstand

                I fully understand your point ,you sanctimonious dolt.

        • afrocarter

          I imagine Tim is afforded a “soapbox” because, even though it usually runs counter to the RR hivemind, his opinion is legit and comes from a place of logic & reason. Just because he doesn’t seem to put much emphasis on the emotional aspects of the game/business doesn’t make his points all of a sudden irrelevant (and worthy of your acid-spewing).

          • jjdynomite

            Sigh, afrocarter, I know you’re a bit confused now that your boy Wince signed with the Grizz, but please explain how TimW’s opinion is “legit”. He is just some dude from the West Coast who had a blog that nobody read (“The Picket Fence”) and Zarar and co. privileged him by giving him a platform for his self-centered views.
            TimW has written approximately 20-30 articles over the past 2 years. About 8 of them were about the 2014 draft prospects. The rest were about how the Raptors were doomed to mediocrity because they lacked that “transcendent” talent.
            Thing is, when I read Garrett or Zarar or Will or Tamberlyn or Andrew or Tim Chisholm or any of the other frequent writers I get new insights, and some of them *are* critical about the team makeup and management and on-court play.
            But TimW, other than his draft previews, writes the same damn thing, over and over again. Yes, we get it, there is no LeBron or Durant on the Raptors. Yes, we know that Wiggins/Parker/__________ has the potential being that “transcendent” talent.
            But it’s the same old, same old. And it’s ridiculous. There is only one LeBron. And now Miami is screwed, and Cleveland is not.

            • afrocarter

              Here’s a novel concept that I think you might enjoy: sometimes writers will have legitimate arguments that you, as the reader, do not agree with or understand. It happens. It certainly doesn’t give you, the reader, the right to denigrate said writer as if your opinion is superior in every way. That’s not how this works.

              The premise for Tim’s article is simple: The Raptors have begun to build a great foundation: good coaching, ownership, management, good on-court mentality, teamwork, etc. However, the overall talent level on the team leaves a bit to be desired. Everyone can agree on that.

              What do we do about it, then? Sit around and hope that the issue solves itself? Or does Masai go out and make some bold decisions?

            • Mexiballer

              Maybe Tim W. is just really real bad at assessing individual basketball talent and equally as bad at analyzing a teams situation.

              • 2damkule

                or not. have a gander at some of what he’s written in the past, and you’ll see he’s been pretty spot-on.

                • Nilanka15

                  Rewind 5 years, and Tim was getting blasted for suggesting Bargnani sucks.

                • sleepz

                  You remember huh? AB fan boys were out in full force about how Andrea was going to take the NBA by storm now that Bosh wasn’t around to steal his shots and rebounds.

                • ThroughEnough

                  …&$!) at the wall, something sticks. a broken clock is right twice a day…………

    • Tinman

      than a very good role player –
      That’s a fair assessment for Ross – and the jury is still out on whether he reaches that ceiling.

    • Trini

      Ridiculous and premature assessment of Ross & JV aside, this was the same guy who ‘wasn’t very high’ on Wiggins a few months ago and was gushing about Parker. Tim W is, as you said, just a major troll writer who likes to go against the grain just for the sake of attracting attention to himself. He really shouldn’t be writing any more articles for RR.

    • afrocarter

      Yeah, you should probably just focus on chilling the fuck out. “NostraDICKmus”? Really?

    • sleepz

      Does Ross have the tools to become better than a good role player?

      What’s wrong with that assessment? Why is it trolling?

      Sensitive Rap fans.

      • 2damkule

        exactly. people seem to have a hard time understanding that almost every player in the L has the physical ability to put up big numbers, on occasion. stardom comes from consistency, and it’s yet to be shown whether ross can be a consistent producer. there’s no shame in being a specialist or a role player, they are the back-bone of championship teams.

      • Trini

        Sorry if I’m missing something here, but what exactly have you seen that’s definite evidence he DOESNT have the tools to become more than just a role player? What I see is a kid who is super athletic, is capable of playing lockdown defence, is a great shooter in his 2nd year and someone who is humble, willing to put work in to get better. Other than his handles and strength (both of which can be improved) what is so obvious to you armchair experts? Did anyone thing Steve Nash, at 22, would be a future MVP?

        • Trini

          HINT: that was a rhetorical question. At 22, Nash was a rookie getting 10 mpg.

          You guys putting a ceiling on a 22 year old who put up 51 points against one of the ‘elite’ teams is laughable. Stick to your day job

        • sleepz

          He’s a 2 guard that can’t dribble. Weak handles and can’t create for himself or his teammates. He’s an adequate defender but because he plays next to Demar most fans think he is a good defender by comparison and that is not the player you should be comparing to when trying to determine defensive ability. He is not a lock down defender. He is also needing to bulk up considerably, which is probably the quickest change he can make imo. I like Ross but I don’t see star or even 2nd – 3rd option when I watch him play.

          No one thought Nash would be an MVP but what’s your point? If I pick a player who had high reputation coming into the league like a Gerald Green for instance and he doesn’t live up to his draft slot, does that my point now counter yours?

          I’m not talking Nash or Green. I’m talking Ross. He’s in his 3rd year now btw, and hopefully he learned some lessons from the playoffs in which he was terrible.

          • Trini

            Who was comparing his defence to DD? Seriously man, in every one of your responses to ppl who disagree with you, you always assume shit and put words in the other person’s mouth..which essentially means you’re just arguing with yourself. Pls quote me above where I compared his defence to DD’s.

            He’s not IN his 3rd yr, as it hasn’t started yet. The fact is that he’s only 22, and if you’re so good at evaluating talent and knowing a player’s ceiling, why aren’t you working for an NBA team? It’s much easier to sit on your couch saying what a player won’t be. You also said Anthony Bennet will be a better player than Ross. I like Bennet and think he’ll be much better this year than last, but where in the fuck do you get those kind of ideas? You talk about potential and what a player has or hasn’t shown. Ross has shown a hell of a lot more than Bennett.

            • sameschool

              sleepz is from the same school as Timmy Dub, where they never learned the value of knowing what you don’t know. They actually believe their young player “future potential” evaluation “expertise”.

  • Amigo

    Ujiri is making Toronto the next Denver. No good enough to win , no bad enough to tank (even if he tried to !) , deep team for a second round exit at best, no elite players. Mc Gee contract looks similar to me to all this re-signing in TO. Too many happy new millionaires players in the same team is scaring. History repeating ? CLE CHI WAS IND are all better teams with better elite players and much better head coach. Will Tim L. promise again the Championship ? or will just skate on “We are the North” and F### Brooklyn ! slogans. Ujiri blew it and you can’t see it. Too many writers pumping up the volume

    • mike, prague

      But being in the mid-tier will help you bring in a star eventually whereas with tanking and then competing is taking about a 3 to 4 year risk if your pick doesn’t meet the expectations.

    • Tinman

      Much too soon to make that assessment.
      Right now we are accumulating assets. We still don’t know the ceiling on a nice chunk of our projected core. We are in a good $$$ situation.
      Let’s just wait and see

  • The Red Fury

    Let these NBA pundits say what they want. Competing will shut everyone up. Everyone thoughts Rap were a 7-8th seed last year, they finished 3rd. Watch them surprise you again.

  • jvub

    If you look at the 2015 raptor free agent class we have Amir Johnson and a bunch of bad contracts (Hayes, Fields, Williams, etc). The raptors also have PP signed for long term so I think the question going forward is how to address the #4 PF position and the secondary depth roles. Do we bring back Amir J or look for a more thorough upgrade. Of course the overarching question is how to secure and bring in elite talent that doesn’t mortgage the future of the franchise. And with considerable cap in 2015 and most teams focussing on the 2016 season to target free agents perhaps finding talent in free agency 2015 is something worth pursuing.

  • Andrey

    LMAO people get pissed.

  • http://www.gamervets.com/ M1GO

    Damn, that was probably the most depressing thing I’ve seen on this site in a while, and I read through that Nuggets summer league post-game. Thank goodness most Raptors fans are a resilient bunch…

  • DC

    DeRozan’s presence was a large part of Lowry deciding to return. My guess is that – at this point in time, right after Lowry deciding to return – Masai would be more likely to trade JV for Wiggins than trade DeRozan.
    There’s a difference between building a contender at all costs and building one the right way. I think Masai will always choose the latter.

  • redyraptor

    I remember being banned on this site for criticising ppl and their tanking suggestions and ludicrous trade proposals. Such as demar derozan for shroder from Atlanta. Some ppl are fascinated with the term young and upcoming team and would rather stick in that bracket. Derozan. Ross. Val. Pp. All made good strides and grew as players they moved up a notch and gained experience. When Rudy came. The team had no confidence or experience and gave Rudy too much respect and all the leeway. Now roles have been defined and whoever superstar Masai eventually trades for will come into an environment and still have to somewhat earn his role. Imo if we could send Ross and chuck Hayes to philly for T young we would address the starting 4 position, allow amir and pp to come in and work together with the second unit and keep our fingers crossed that Durant sees us by then being title contenders. Lol. Fields would start his scoring would be substituted by T young. But your suggestion of derozan and Ross is toooooo much for an unproven Wiggins who is starting to look very average now. And the whole tanking and rebuilding stance is just distasteful at this point.

  • JP

    This guy does know that Terrence Ross and JV have only been in the league 2 years so far right? Have some patience dude. Players take time to develop. Look at your example of Jermaine O’Neal took him 6 years to finally break out. You have some good points in your post like the chance of landing Durant or waiting for Wiggins to become a free agent, but the post just seemed like a long tangent and no real direction.

  • ddd

    >:(

  • JP

    Great read. I can’t stop thinking about your single paragraph on Jonas. He is 22. I agree with you on his offensive potential, save for one huge variable: He can shoot, mid range and ft. That makes it easy for me to see him 10 years from now averaging 14 pts, and 7+ rbs. The thing is, I can’t see his peak offensively between now and then, which might be 14 pts. On defence, I think it is far too early to project. When he learns (the “if” factor, but a mild one) the tricks of the trade in the post on D to get stops, or on O to get to the line and cash in on his ft%, with his body, he should be starter quality on a play-off team for at least 12 years. Even if he had an O’Neil/Gortat level of craftiness…where is his ceiling on D?

  • ValanInuyashassss

    If Carlos Boozer gets amnesty, Raptors should use veteran minimum to sign him. I always thought Raptors need a vet, that has deep playoff/championship experiment, that’s what they were lacking in the playoffs. To be honesty, I don’t they we fully addressed this so far in the offseason, adding Boozer would be a huge veteran piece. Look, Cavs is up there, Bulls is hugely improved(they might get Wade too), Pacers up there, I think Wizards is better than the Raps, and Knicks is also improving. So Raps are in the mix between 3-6 seeds. They need vet in order to succeed in the coming year, and expect Fields gets shipped away in the coming year.

    • Garrett Hinchey

      I have a feeling that someone is going to offer him the veteran’s minimum. It’ll probably take more than that to get it done.

      I’d be interested in throwing all the cap space we have left at him and seeing if that’d do it, but the fact remains that we have plenty of power forwards and need a backup centre. Whose minutes would Boozer take? Patterson’s or Amir’s?

  • Pong

    I think Ross can be a good starter. He has just as many ‘tools’ as derozan when he first entered the league. Not sure if he’ll ever be the offensive weapon Derozan is, averaging 20+ pts a game, but he’s already a better defender and can shoot the 3 (I think Derozan’s inability to hit 3s as a SG will be what holds him back from being a great player).

  • OakTree

    I think that the Spurs model is a good one, and one that can be replicated. There are a lot of similarities with the teams Ujiri put together in Denver.

    San Antonio gives guys nights off, limits their minutes, and has a deep 9 man rotation, which they employ even in the playoffs, when conventional wisdom says they should shorten their rotation.

    This allows them to play at a higher energy level. By this, I don’t mean a higher pace. Teams that run a high pace offense take quick shots. The Spurs use a lot of motion in their offense with long possessions. It requires fresh legs to do that while also playing a scrambling, rotating defense. In the playoffs they ran a tired Miami team out of the gym, which is remarkable especially considering how much more athletic the Heat were (supposedly).

    I think that the era of high end talent over depth is slowly, but surely, ending. Miami broke up because they had no depth, and their high priced talent prevented them from acquiring good role players. LeBron knows this, and it’s why he jumped to a team with many efficient rookie contracts.

    The Kevin Love deal is dead in the water if the Cavs have any foresight whatsoever. They have $38 million tied up in LBJ and Kyrie. How the hell do they afford to resign Kevin Love, exactly? They can’t!

    Miami couldn’t keep together Wade, Bosh and LeBron, and Cleveland won’t be able to keep together Love, LBJ and Kyrie. A deal for Love would be a one season rental, and giving up Wiggins for that would be just plain dumb. Then again, it’s Cleveland, so I’m not ruling it out.

    Cleveland has a golden opportunity to contend for a long time if they manage their assets correctly. They need to look at what OKC did with Harden and start planning for when the contracts of Waiters, Wiggins, Thompson and Bennett are up for renewal.

    Each time they will need to do the salary cap math and decide who needs to be traded, and try to get efficient contracts back in return. There will always be capped out contenders that can only get players like this back in trade. The market for expiring rookie contracts, with Bird rights, is always strong. The Cavs have enough young talent that they can stretch out their window of contention to the end of LBJ’s career, which is what they should be doing.

    Forget about Love to Cleveland, it’s all just media hype. It makes no sense long term.

    • jjdynomite

      It’s interesting you bring up the OKC/Harden trade and then state “forget about Love to Cleveland… it makes no sense long term”. But isn’t that the same pit OKC/GM Presti fell into? He traded Harden to maintain salary flexibility and build around Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka, but Harden could well have been the X Factor that pushed OKC over the top, whereas the past 3 years they’ve only come so close.

      Put it another way, if Love brings a championship to Cleveland with a Big 3 of LeBron/Love/Irving, with a fan base that is even worse off than Toronto’s fan base, NOBODY in Ohio will care that Wiggins is blooming in Minnesota. At least many of us can remember the Jays’ winning in 92-93; none of Cleveland’s major league teams have won in 50 frickin’ years! And LeBron’s not going to be 30 forever (he already looks like he’s 50). So where’s the sense long term if LeBron is aging and the Wiggins and Bennetts and Thompsons still have a ways to go.

      The funny thing is, TinyTim’s retarded article is promising the exact opposite: trading solid, still-improving players now for a chance at a superstar in the future.

  • The Waterboy

    If you view team management from an economics perspective, it’s reasonable to say that building a winning, contending team within CBA limits involves assembling a group of players with more talent per dollar and better performance per dollar than the other teams have, to the extent that you can. Whether or not Derozan is a good fit for the long term depends a lot upon what his next contract will look like. Based on current performance, if we can retain him on his next contract for Lowry-level money, he is a good fit, and we can look to bring in an all-star beside him via FA or with our other assets.

    On the other hand, if he is going to ask for and get the max, we should deal him before he hits free agency. Throwing max money at a non-max-contract player kills your team’s ability to compete in two ways: it lowers your performance per dollar, and it disproportionately reduces your flexibility to build the rest of your team.

    The first rule of building an NBA title condending ought to be “no max contracts for non-top-5-in-the-league players.”

  • DDayLewis

    Everyone, when you’re commenting, please try to adhere to our commenting policy (found here: http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2014/01/28/commenting-policy/

    Obviously, Tim’s points are contentious, but you can do it in a reasonable fashion. Try to attack the points, not the people.

    Thanks guys.

    • speechless

      Allowing the same mindless broken record to be played over and over, when he always gets this kind of reaction, is outright inciting the fanbase to be pissed and strike back. He drags the quality of this site down.

      • afrocarter

        “Boo hoo, we don’t like it when staff writers express a point of view that’s different from our own!”

        • Trini

          It’s more than that when it comes to the hate of Tim W. He just comes off as smug and arrogant. Not to mention he gets credit for ‘sticking to his guns,’ yet will actually contradict himself in order to suit his own narrative. Go read some of his draft articles from the past season, he downplays the Wiggins hype and claimed how he wasn’t high on the guy. And now we should mortgage our future by trading most of our starting lineup to get him? Gimme a break. There’s a big difference between offering up a different opinion, and being a condescending dick who just wants attention.

          • afrocarter

            Please point out any examples of condescension within this article, for I can’t seem to find any. I don’t necessarily agree with all of his arguments, but I wouldn’t say that they were put forward in an arrogant manner. Certainly not moreso than some of these RR comments.

            • Trini

              I’m not speaking about this article in particular when it comes to his arrogance, but I’ve had arguments with him in the past and that’s just how he comes off. I’ve also seen him write about how he was ‘so right’ and just plenty other examples in his writing that support my claims about him. I don’t need to prove it to you, but I have many reasons.

              • afrocarter

                Okay, that’s fair; I can’t dispute your claims, so I will take them, with a grain of salt, at face value. Regardless, saying “Tim’s been an asshole in the past” doesn’t justify the vitriol in THIS comments section. That’s all I’m saying.

                • Trini

                  You’re right, but my assessment of the guy is based on actually reading his material over the past few years and paying attention to how he writes. I actually enjoyed some of his draft stuff and replied positively in those posts. I’m not just gonna flame him because he doesn’t agree with me, but I think my judgment of him being condescending and smug is more than justified. You should go back and read some of his stuff from the past year or so and see exactly what I’m talking about.

                • 2damkule

                  so, basically you see who the author is, and have a pretty good idea of the gist of the article before reading it.

                • Trini

                  Lol. I’m guessing you were trying to make some kind of sly, sarcastic remark that turned out pretty lame seeing as how you missed the point. Yeah, after reading a lot of his material I know more or less what kind of writing I’m gonna get from him. Is that not a fair assessment? I don’t like the guy based on how he writes and how he views his own opinion (I’m right and you’re wrong). An I missing something here?

                • Trini

                  I also don’t understand why he’s allowed to write the exact same things over and over again. Only now offering up some video game style trade that won’t happen, for a guy whose talent he was downplaying in the first place. I get that his writing shouldn’t be judged based on past articles..but when you write the same thing over and over, this type of reaction from loyal readers should be expected.

                • 2damkule

                  not at all. it’s the same reason i don’t watch fox & friends.

    • webfeat

      This seems to mostly happen after a TimW article. Part of the blame has to lie with the instigator, no?

    • Nilanka15

      I’ll never understand how people get this upset over FREE content. #FirstWorldProblems

  • The Waterboy

    I’f we try to improve the compete level of this team right now, which may not be a bad idea given that the Cavs, even with Love will take time to jell and may still be somewhat poorly constructed, I’m wondering if Toronto could sweeten an Amir-Johnson-for-Marc-Gasol offer to Memphis enough so that they’d be interested, without having to give up DeMar/Kyle/T-Ross/Jonas/PatPat or either of our two long term investments (Bruno and BeBe). I suspect, though, that if Memphis considers a trade for Gasol at all, it would require sending more back than we would want to give up. That being said, however, I can still play the armchair GM here and discuss it more.

    Gasol/Valunciunas/Patterson is a pretty solid combination of bigs and allows a lot of flexibility based on matchups. Lowry/Derozan/T-Ross and one of Vasquez or a rejuvenated Lou Williams round out things very nicely from the other end. We’d still be relying on James Johnson to shore up the SF position behind DeMar, but overall I’d consider that team to be well-balanced, and more than capable of top-10 or top-5 performances offensively and defensively

    • Jensan

      Amir + 2 first round picks for Marc Gasol. (2015 and the Knicks pick)

  • Jensan

    Constructed this 3 way earlier, DD , Amir plus 1st round, Kevin Love and Martin
    Wiggins, Tristan Thompson plus Cleveland’s 1st pick, miami’s 1st round pick.
    Minnesota receives DD , Thompson, plus 3 first round picks .
    Cleveland receives K love and Johnson
    Toronto receives Martin and Wiggins

  • NameMatters

    Most of the article is good until the end bit about trading for Wiggins.

    1) This goes against what MU and the rest of the Raps have been saying about keeping the team together and having consistency in the roster.
    2) If they (for some god forbid reason) do make this trade happen, no player will be loyal to Raptors or want to come because anyone can be on the trading block. Not to mention what kind of negative image it will have on potential free agents on Toronto as a destination.
    3) This gamble is too risky even for MU. Taking the Brazilian KD is one thing at 20th, trading 3/5 of the 48-wins core starters is another.

    While I respect Tim W.’s view, I think this suggestion is not in the best interest for our Raps.

  • Rapchat

    Boring. Nothing new. All he does is focus on what’s not there, which is obvious and pointless. Next article please.

  • Trini

    Tim W has the tools to be a good writer, but his lack of NBA awareness and troll mentality prevent him from being elite.

  • CashGameND

    A few things.

    As much as if like to have Wiggins mu is not going to blow up the roster and chemistry from last year. Especially after having 3 players who resigned here due to that chemistry.

    You say spurs have three all-stars and we are nowhere close to that. But derozan was an all-star. Lowry should have been an all-star. And jv Ross have shown talent, grown, and are young enough that they could take leaps forward to become all-stars. There is also free agency with all that money coming off the books next year. And I know it’s a long shot but they drafted caboclo on the how that one day he could be all-star caliber. We are also a very young team and have only had 3/4 of a season to grow together and look how far they’ve come already.

    And the last long is basically how you criminally underrate our talent and overrate other teams talent with saying there’s no way we can repeat last year and rattling off all these teams that are better. Our roster has improved and will continue to improve. And almost every single player on this team is young and can continue to improve as well. I know most raptor’s fans don’t want to be to over the moon optimistic but it’s very possible we could win the east. Sure it’s possible we could finish 4/5/6. But I believe in the chemistry and the hard work that is part of the chemistry of this team that will help them grow and have another fantastic season. I’d be surprised if we finish worse then 5th. And won’t be surprised at all of we finished second or even first. I believe the chemistry and growth will make this team even better

  • NBA2k14

    If Gay is a volume shooter then this is a “Volume Writer”. Shoot enough baskets and eventually one drops but you lay an awful lot of bricks in the mean time.

  • Roarque

    Fun read TimW – perfect for a mid summer heat wave on the west coast. However I think Masai plans to see if another year of organic growth can get the currently structured team to win two rounds in the playoffs and, with a five year window on his contract, that’s a wise move.

  • c

    this is so stupid hahah

    • c

      I would recommend taking this article down, deleting the file, pretend like it never happened, much respect lost

  • Mugsy

    You guys say and whine all you want but dude has a right to an opinion. There is ONE writer on here with a different point of view and everyone’s up in arms. I like this team, and wanna see it kept together next year, but would gladly read an article like this (that differs from all the others) once in a while, than read the same “i love lowry”, “derozan is a superstar”, and “JV and Ross will be stars soon”. We KNOW what we have, a different take isn’t the end of the world. It’s what the site is for.

    • lacksmarts

      The differing opinion might be easier to take if it at least made sense, and demonstrated some basketball knowledge. Simply stating what he feels is missing, which is usually just some cliched “doh”, then offering senseless, mind-numbing “solutions” to obtain it, while following the same old pattern of dismissing/demeaning all the good that is going on with this organization, serves what purpose?

      • Mugsy

        While I get your disagreement, the point that fans on here whine too much still stands. You can disagree, but your analysis of this article and it’s suggestions as “senseless” is still just your opinion of what the team should/shouldn’t do. Tim could also come out and write an article about how thinking a team whos best player is Kyle Lowry will some day soon be Elite is completely senseless and mind-numbing. But he doesn’t, cuz he doesn’t over-react when someone has a difference of opinion from him. Like I said, I disagree with the article almost in entirety, but to get angry just because one out of the 5, 6, or however many writers on here believes this team isn’t good enough and needs big change is a little childish.

        • lacksmarts

          Along with Trini (see posts in this thread), others have lengthy history with Timmy Dub when they let him respond, with condescending arrogance galore (“I’m here to be RIGHT,……”), in the comments section (not happening now), and equipped him with a ban hammer for his itchy trigger finger. Childish as it may seem to some, he made a bed and his writing faces baggage.

          • Mugsy

            Hah, wasn’t aware of this. So fair enough I guess.

  • afrocarter

    As much as the your GM pitch makes a ton of sense on paper, Tim, I don’t think it’s possible to overstate how much the intangibles like team chemistry has, and will continue to, come into play for this team. Trading away DeRozan and Amir, especially, will do little to reinforce Lowry’s confidence in the organization.

    As much as the 100% logic part of me understands that, considering he’s probably reaching his cieling, selling high on DeRozan (and moving Ross to starting SG position) could truly help the franchise moving forward — I couldn’t do it. He’s done so much for the team, his relationship with Amir & Lowry; the subjective arguments outweigh the objective arguments in this case, IMO.

  • DATGUYBOI

    OMG GUY REALLY? WHY DON’T WE JUST TRADE EVERYONE AND SIGN KWAME BROWN, MICHAEL BEASLEY, ARAUJO, BARGNANI, MILICIC, ODEN, MORRISON ALL TO MAX CONTRACTS, WHY WASTE TIME DEVELOPING OUR GROUP THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW IF WE’RE ONLY GONNA BE MAKING THE PLAYOFFS AND POSSIBILY GET AS FAR AS THE CONFERENCE FINALS, MIGHT AS WELL BLOW IT ALL UP AND SIGN ALL THESE GUYS, WHY NOT RIGHT??!! RIGHT??!!

    • 2damkule

      ignoring that you’re just being stupid, if you think that this ‘developing’ group is going to peak as, say, a 2nd round playoff team, and will never seriously contend for a title, then yes, you make moves to try to become legit contenders. how long do you think the good feeling from one playoff ‘run’ will last, exactly?

  • c

    this is so stupid hahaha

  • raptormania

    Looking at this again I didn’t really like the article. What is being proposed here is short sighted and will result in more treadmill mediocrity for the raptors. I don’t think the proposal went far enough in deconstructing the talent from the team so that the raptors could sustain a multi-year tank and draft high end players as well as acquire prospects and draft picks over the next few years.

    To me this article seems to want to take the “middle road” and make everyone happy. That is to make those want a proper rebuild through a tank (like me) and those that want to compete now and organically rebuild on the fly (others on here). As a result, what we get is a proposal in which no one is very happy at all.

    • KickPuncher

      You’ve changed your mind about 10x in these comments. Please stop spamming.

    • 2damkule

      reading comprehension fail: the article wants to avoid taking a ‘middle road’ approach and the (upper level) mediocrity treadmill they’re heading for.

      • another

        Another Masai superior. Another one that never learned the value of knowing what you don’t know.

  • CJT

    I agree that at this point in time we are not championship contenders, but I also think it is important to begin to win. The issue I have with all you Tim’s analysis is that in order to be great don’t you have to first be good? It seems like his plan goes from tank to championship like it is a guaranteed thing and it is not. I think there are some great points made about finding high talent cast offs from other teams, like Kyle and putting them in a better position to contribute and make a difference, hopefully we see some of this from James Johnson. Good maybe the enemy of great, but bad does not necessarily lead to great either. It seems to me that getting good is the preferable route to take and try to add pieces to a core that is good to become great.

    • 2damkule

      they’re already good. they were good last year. good teams make the playoffs. that’s the start. the problem is, sometimes good just stays good (hence using collins’ quote). if what you want out of this franchise is a yearly playoff team, who has a shot at getting into (and past) the 2nd round, then feel free to support staying the course, tweaking here & there, and learning to live with disappointment.

      • CJT

        The reality is that we don’t know where the team is headed at this point. They have made a single playoff appearance. It is time to make incremental improvements until the opportunity to add a talent arises. I am a fan of the organic growth and patience that Masai is preaching, find the right guys who fit the team and build that way. Make moves when it makes sense not this continual tear it down and rebuild.

        • 2damkule

          they’ve never done a tear-down/rebuild.

          • CJT

            Agreed on a proper tear down, but historically they have been in a constant rebuild. Switching up the majority of the roster year in and out. If you want to call it something else, cool, but as a smart fan, you know that there hasn’t been any continuity on the Raptors in a very long time.

      • sleepz

        And sometimes ‘good’ becomes bad quickly. Case in point. 2007 Toronto Raptors.

        • 2damkule

          yup…was just trying to think on the positive side of the ledge (for a change).

          as for 2007…there was more going on than just the raps regressing, it was more about the East (particularly the atlantic) being better that year than in ’06…which certainly could be the case in ’14/’15 as well. miami will fall back a bit, but should still be a playoff team, and CLE will get into the top half…wiz look not terrible, char made some interesting moves (though maybe more long-term in nature??). the nets will fall back a bit, but maybe not as much as we assume? i dunno, it’s gonna be a fun year.

  • Jam

    After years upon years upon years of the Raptors being a total disappointment with a GM who tried to hit a home run every off season, how can we be discussing screwing with the most cohesive team we have ever had? This is the first time since Vince was in town where there is optimism about this team. We are in incredibly well constructed and deep, play efficient offensive and defensive basketball, and have a group who like eachother and love Toronto. We can’t be expected to make strides forward by continuously screwing with our team chemistry the way BC did. Lowry and DeRozan have a very special connection, and DeRozan is not done improving. I don’t get how you can think Ross’ ceiling is just 3 and D, he’s already adding a slashing game, has an elite level athleticism, has defensive mentality way ahead of his years, and is a natural shooter! With the right training and drive (which he has according to the off-season) he really could supplant DeRozan because his shooting and D are already better than Demars. DeRozan’s work ethic is rubbing off on Ross too, so they’re both only getting better. Top that off with JV getting better by the minute and some very real depth, we have very good team. I think one of the biggest assets on our team is family-like chemistry we’ve got in that locker room. No ego’s, no issues, just guys who wanna win together. It reminds me of the Spurs cohesion, which is the basis for that “we not me” mentality. We have the pieces to be special. I’m not delusional either, we aren’t there yet, but trying to move some of our best contributors for Wiggins right now is going to toss a wrench into all of it, and completely kill the momentum we’ve built.

    Now onto Wiggins, yes he CAN be a special player, but right now no one knows. Honestly, I think him playing next to Lebron is the best NBA training he could possibly get. Lebron is huge on team and the development of talent around him. He’ll push Wiggins to be the best player he can be, at which point we can try to sign him. The only difference with Wiggins is he wants to be here so our shot is legit. Wiggins is very likely to pull his own “I’m coming home” 4 years from now. Not to mention there is NO WAY the cavs spend huge money on 3 players. Kyrie is locked up for 5 years, LeBron will be there for the rest of his career taking max money, a 3rd max or near max contract just wouldn’t happen. Meanwhile, we have a GM who is very aware of the finances, and u better believe he’ll keep plenty of cap space for Wiggins (if he pans out). He also has the go-ahead to go into the tax if need be. Why the hell wouldn’t be want to let him develop his NBA game on another team? We aren’t bottom feeders anymore, we only have limited minutes for sheer development. Why not continue building on this very good team, and then sell a developed Wiggins on: 1. Being the home town hero, 2. Joining a winning culture in Toronto, 3. Being the “final piece” we need to make the championship leap”. In 4 years Demar will be in his prime, Ross and JV will be entering it, Bruno might be a very real NBA player, and Lowry (while older) should still be effective.

    I say everyone just relax and enjoy watching this amazing team of ours develop further and make some deep playoff runs. The east power has distributed with LeBron leaving, meaning in a 7 game serious, we have a shot at beating anyone, even without wiggins.

    • afrocarter

      You make a good argument on selling Wiggins on a return to Toronto down the road — though I’m unsure about whether or not he’ll even be eligible to change teams 4 years from now. Nevertheless, having the best player in the world as his mentor is, without a doubt, the best situation for the kid to be in. Best of luck to him this year and onward.

    • sleepz

      Raps haven’t won a playoff series in how many years but now they can give any Eastern Conference team a run in a 7 game series? smh

      • Jam

        Yea, I mean why not? Anyone who watched us against the $180M Nets saw that if a few keys guys didn’t have playoff jitters we could’ve taken them in 6. Regardless of all the sloppy mistakes, we were one shot away from winning. And with that loss under our belt, those mistakes will reduce.

        The team we’ve got now is a much different one than the ones we had for the last 7 years. You can’t say we don’t have the ability to give the east a run just because we haven’t won a series in 7 years. Our #1 option for some of those years was Bargnani. Our top FA one of those years was Hedo Turkoglu. Last years team showed that we’ve finally got a mix of talent that works and is sustainable. Saying we wont win because we didn’t win for 7 years is like saying the Cavs should miss the playoffs this year because they have missed is 4 years in a row…but that’s ridiculous, because they’re a different team now. I don’t think we can beat everyone in the east, but I’m confident we can beat some and maybe scare some others. I’m optimistic…but its not nuts.

        • sleepz

          I saw a Raps team that won their division lose at home to an overrated division opponent in 7. What does that series have to do with competing with the better teams in the East?
          Nets aren’t the danger in the Conference.

  • 2damkule

    why does anyone think RR wouldn’t have TW write, he gets the most reaction! CLICKBAIT!

    whether you agree with his POV or not, it gets people talking, and in a lot of cases, is a reminder that we need to take off our raptor blinders every once in a while and take a look at the big picture. while we’re all free to disagree, he (and many) feel that the core of this team, while young & exciting, with some good potential, isn’t likely to be on par with the upper-echelon (i.e. title-contending) teams in the L. that’s it. his point now, and always has been, to build a team that is a true title contender.

    my guess is that 99% of those complaining about what he writes do so mainly because they read his articles with the predisposed intention to do so, because ‘it’s TimW.’

    • afrocarter

      Yep. Tim Chisolm will have vitriol thrown his way simply because RR commenters THINK he’s Tim W. It doesn’t matter how salient the stated arguments are; the hate is just too strong.

      • 2damkule

        yup…the problem is that even if/when he’s proven ‘right,’ he loses, because that gets the masses even more riled up.

    • jjdynomite

      Although, 2damkule, you’d have to admit that we only have to read the byline to know EXACTLY what (troll-worthy garbage) TimW’s article is going to be about, no?

      Perhaps if TimW tried not to plagiarize himself like he does in, say, every single article, he’d have readers that do more than expect the worst. Every. Time. Out.

      And, by the way, there *is* a lot of debate on these boards; I don’t see too many regular posters having their “raptor blinders” on. Just in the past week, there have been debates over whether Vasquez’ contract was worth it, whether DeRozan is blocking T-Ross’ future as the starting SG, whether James Johnson would be more worthwhile over being disruptive, whether LouWilliams can be a contributor or is he just an expiring contract, same with Fields, whether our bench this season is better than last season, etc., etc.
      Tim’s article contributes NOTHING to this dialogue. He is a troll who has the privilege of writing full, long-winded, always-negative articles. And since Masai has said for the past 3 months he’s bringing the group back together, Tim’s articles are examples in masturbatory wishful thinking, a la “If I was GM….”

      If Tim was GM, I’d pray for him to be fired. Just like I did for Colangelo and his retarded “swing for the fences” ways.

      • afrocarter

        Why exactly do you think Tim is adding nothing to the dialogue? He’s asking the most fundamental of questions. Whether or not you’re ready to actually address it is your problem, not his (or ours).

        • Rapchat

          Since there was no reply and it was a straight forward question, I’d like to answer it, in my view at least. You actually said it, he is asking the most fundamental (basic, obvious) questions. How do the Raps become champs? Duh. Its such a broad topic, and his answer (Wiggins) is random to say the least. I think we all know that this team isn’t quite “elite” yet, so all he has done is state that, with some what if’s, so really what’s the point? I’d like to read stuff that is relevant to THIS team moving forward, not ONE idea of a franchise. The article is titled What’s Next For The Raptors. Apparently nothing, unless we get Wiggins. Bad title (looking for hits) and nice perspective. Will he even still write if we don’t get Wiggins? He has not given himself a platform to do so. What will he write about? NOT getting Wiggins? I don’t care who wrote it, I didn’t find it informative or entertaining. It felt like someone trying to TELL me something rather than discuss it.

          • afrocarter

            So you’d like RR to be populated exclusively with articles that YOU would like to read? Nothing for readers who would actually like to discuss how the Raptors can constructively add to their talent pool? The Wiggins trade is the one suggestion that the writer vouches for, sure, but it is one of several possible avenues addressed in the piece.

            Firstly, if you don’t like the subject matter or the writer’s suggestions, that doesn’t make the article irrelevant. It just means that you don’t share the writer’s opinion. Which is okay.

            Secondly, the “fundamental question” at the heart of the article is one that, quite frankly, we should be asking on a regular basis e.g. taking a step back and looking at the big picture. As opposed to constantly hiding in the present.

            • Rapchat

              Um you did not address a single thing I wrote. It’s not a big deal I just didn’t like the perspective of the article, which as you said is okay. Naturally, I would like RR to have articles that I want to read, don’t you? As opposed to RR having articles I don’t want to read…so yeah. Constructively add to our talent pool? That is where we disagree. I don’t think there is a single constructive thing about what was written here. Anyone can imagine the scenario he proposed and then some. How do you get a championship team? Simple, get a different team. Find a modern Michael Jordan, or two, and start from there.. Really? Shut up? This is genius.

              • afrocarter

                I addressed everything that you wrote in your previous post; perhaps you should read my response again. Of course everybody wants RR to write articles they want to read — the key word being EVERYBODY, which includes people that want to read about things that you don’t care about.

                And again, you don’t have to agree with Tim; I didn’t agree with Tim, either. I just didn’t take it too far and start demanding the writer’s head/protest his existence/declare the uselessness of everything he writes. We can have our own opinions, as long as we don’t treat them as gospel.

                • Rapchat

                  No. You didn’t address 1 thing. I can say the same that you should read what I wrote again. In fact, where did I take it too far and demand anyone’s head? Ummmmmmmm. I didn’t. Protest his existence? HAHA not here. Declare the uselessness of everything he writes? Who the F*** are you talking to because I wrote no such things. YOU asked a question (Why exactly do you think Tim is adding nothing to the dialogue?) and I answered it with my own honest opinion slandering NO ONE in the process. My comments were all based on the article itself. Again it’s all good. It’s just what I thought.

                • afrocarter

                  I never said you did any of those things; I was referring to this discussion thread in general, so calm down — a discussion thread, by the way, that’s almost at 300 comments. Not a bad discussion for an article that apparently isn’t adding anything to said discussion. We can agree to disagree; at the end of the day we’re all Raptors fans here.

                  Now, since this apparently appears to be necessary:

                  Q: “I think we all know that this team isn’t quite “elite” yet, so all he has done is state that, with some what if’s, so really what’s the point? I’d like to read stuff that is relevant to THIS team moving forward, not ONE idea of a franchise.”

                  A: “Secondly, the “fundamental question” at the heart of the article is one that, quite frankly, we should be asking on a regular basis e.g. taking a step back and looking at the big picture. As opposed to constantly hiding in the present.”

                  Q: ” The article is titled What’s Next For The Raptors. Apparently nothing, unless we get Wiggins.”

                  A: “The Wiggins trade is the one suggestion that the writer vouches for, sure, but it is one of several possible avenues addressed in the piece.”

                  Q: “Will he even still write if we don’t get Wiggins? He has not given himself a platform to do so. What will he write about? NOT getting Wiggins?”

                  A: (Question too illogical to warrant a response)

                  LOL half-joking though.

                • Rapchat

                  I am calm. You insinuated that I said those things. Why else bring that up to me? Now read my original comment again, and you will see the very last sentence (I didn’t find it informative or entertaining. It felt like someone trying to TELL me something rather than discuss it.) is the actual point of that comment, and why I didn’t like the article, which you say nothing about, correct? You didn’t get my point here. My entire argument is over his writing perspective and not his actual opinion, which he is entitled to. Yes I see 300 comments.. many asking if this is even a legitimate opinion or not so that isn’t saying anything.

                • afrocarter

                  Please don’t try and tell me what I am and am not insinuating with my own words.

                  Other than that, you have legit points. I personally didn’t see anything wrong with his writing perspective; it read to me like somebody comprehensibly establishing context before stating his opinion. It appears you have different thoughts; that is your prerogative. As far as the comments mainly questioning the writer’s opinion? The sheer volume of them proves that the subject matter in and of itself is important to many of us Raptors fans, so why wouldn’t RR get someone to write about it?

                • Rapchat

                  I am not trying to tell you anything. You insinuated with your own words. >>> “And again, you don’t have to agree with Tim; I didn’t agree with Tim, either. I just didn’t take it too far and start demanding the writer’s head/protest his existence/declare the uselessness of everything he writes. We can have our own opinions, as long as we don’t treat them as gospel.” You start this paragraph by using me in context, then apparently took me out of the context. How was I supposed to know that?

                • Rapchat

                  Oh BTW I love this forum and the discussions in general. I find a lot of the time I get the best perspective from these comments, wide and far, so I appreciate them all. Your insight is always good too so this convo isn’t any sort of knock.

      • 2damkule

        by ‘blinders,’ i’m referring to the mentality that all followers of a particular team fall into, in that – depending on whether you feel positively or negatively about a player – the extremes are usually cited. if you don’t like a player, for example, then he’s the worst POS on earth, if you do, then he’s god’s gift. we rarely are able to see the true picture; we harp on weaknesses while ignoring strengths, or vice versa. take derozan…it’s almost as though that now he’s an AS, we’re not supposed to talk about his weaknesses, and we’re supposed to expect that he’s going to keep on improving, and the danger in that thinking is that if he doesn’t improve (ball-handling, D, range, etc.), then the team is essentially building around a flawed player. honestly, do you think a team can win a championship if DD is that team’s best (or, at least, go-to) player?

        • jjdynomite

          You will bear no complaint from me, 2damkule, if you criticize DD. I myself have gotten flack over the past week for saying that it’s a disappointment they have similar body types, as T-Ross would make a much stronger SG due to his 3PT skill set and stronger defense (on quicker PGs and SGs, for sure). I got some flack for that, but whatever, DD has his fanboys; now that Masai resigned Kyle, I doubt DD will remain on the no-trade list, especially considering he has a player opt-out in the not-to-distant future.

          In my opinion, this is Kyle’s team far more than DeMar’s, since he’s pretty much all that you want in a PG now that his head’s on straight: his fearlessness, his defensive acumen, his killer long range, his aim to get his teammates involved and motivated, etc., etc.
          However, I’m just a commenter who watches every game either live or on the tube; I’m not a privileged article writer who advocates over-and-over-and-over again something like trading DD + Amir + T-Ross for Wiggins or [insert “transcendent” player here]

          Finally, I sometimes think that an all-or-nothing perspective is appropriate. When it comes to team makeup, I think Bustnani was pretty much “the worst POS on earth”, and the selfishness of Gay was not far behind. Now we see what happened when they were jettisoned from the team, and it has worked out pretty well, now, hasn’t it?

          • 2damkule

            agree. and if you’ll remember, Tim was an early & loud advocate for the team ridding itself of bargs, and his article last year re. gay (before – or just as – the season started) drew an awful lot of ire from the masses. point is, he’s not wrong about what he thinks a team aspiring to a championship needs to be built. it’d be pretty hypocritical of him to now go against what he believes simply to appease those who disagree with him.

            for so long, we’ve just wanted a team that wasn’t an embarrassment. they’re not an embarrassment, but that’s just a small step. mainly, i just hate the idea that now that that’s the case, we should be content to ‘see how it plays out.’

      • sleepz

        How was he trolling?

        Raps fans love to overvalue the team. He’s right in determining that they are a good team but without elite talent, you aren’t making any ‘runs’ in this league.

        I saw Raptor fans reactions to the Heat stuff this week and you’d swear the Raps are contenders now (which they are not). All of a sudden Raps are a top tier team in the East because Lebron went to Cleveland? I’d argue that’s just one more team pushing Raps back down the Eastern Conference ladder.

        The bar is set a lot higher now which might wake some people up next season. I don’t see this team being better than they were last year, even with the additions and bringing everyone back. I thought Tim’s article was thoughtful and well presented. His rep is what makes people upset because he doesn’t throw on the rose coloured googles when writing and thank goodness for that,

    • DDayLewis

      Re: Clickbait

      Our site is like any other team sport blog. When the team is good, more clicks. When it’s not, less clicks. You’re extrapolating more comments to equal more readers which isn’t the case.

      • 2damkule

        haha, yeah, i know, it was tongue-in-cheek…i was expecting one of the more genius-y members of the republic to bring it up as an actual ‘thing.’

        but hey, thanks for reading the rest of my comment…

        • DDayLewis

          I agree with the rest. Not much real conversation is generated.

          • 2damkule

            sorry, i’ll try to do better to generate conversation. perhaps some personal attacks?

            • DDayLewis

              Let’s try that!

              I’ll start: you’re not a real fan!

              • 2damkule

                no, YOU’RE not a real fan, cause you, like, uh, wrote something about, erm, lessee, vasquez once, and i remember not liking it. YOU SUCK!

                • DDayLewis

                  We did it!

                • Statement

                  Lol

  • GoingBig

    Interesting template for a trade –
    But you undervalue DeRozan, Amir, TRoss, and Cleveland’s need to get Kevin Lowe

    TRoss & Amir to Minnesota – improves MINN now for Wiggins
    DD, Amir, TRoss for Wiggins is Overpay

  • hotshot

    Bunch of cry baby Homer’s on here, Tim was just making a suggestion of what he thinks is the best path to winning a championship and some people are losing their minds. Very intelligent rebuttals folks (sarcasm) you are making this site starting to look like realgm.

    • Trini

      And please explain how it’s any different than any of the stuff he’s written in the past year… My dog could throw out fantasy land trade scenarios, but that’s not actually adding anything of value to the conversation.

  • Robin

    This Tim W guy is out of his mind. It makes no sense to do a 3v1 and completely alienate bandwagon fans, have real attendance go back below 15,000 and TV ratings back to the equivalent of Liberty Village. You want to destroy this team so that in 5 years we may have one player that has a 50% chance to be a McGrady, 25% chance to be a Vince, 20% chance to be Gerald Wallace and 5% chance to Lebron/Kobe/Jordan? and then add some other types through the draft like Terrence Ross, Charlie Vs and Ed Davis’ so Wiggins can be unhappy after 5 years of losing and say screw this?

    You are like my one friend who goes all-in after the flop with one Ace and 4 people at the table. He doesn’t care about the probabilities but only sees the “well if I hit another Ace I win and take these suckers out!” We love to invite him cause he’s so out of touch and easy money…

    • 2damkule

      you really think attendance would drop and interest would wane should wiggins (magically) become a raptor? if, as you speculate, wiggins has a 75% shot at being a t-mac/vince type, then how can you not move heaven/earth to get him?

      • Robin

        We will not be a winning team for some time with a McGrady-type alone leading this team…i.e. Orlando. And yes, having an exciting player on a losing team despite the fact he is Canadian I do not think will keep fans coming (Derozan as a bad example).

        We have tried this re-building plan for probably 16 of 20 years the raptors have been in existence. I have watched 95% of those games. I am tired of that crap and it is too risky.

        • 2damkule

          you seem like the prototypical long-time sufferer/fan who just wants a reason to feel positive about the team. there’s nothing wrong with that, those of us who’ve followed the team as long as we have definitely deserve some good feels for the (mostly) inept running of the franchise. i guess i just disagree with how much worse they’d be if that move were made…maybe i’m just a little more down on the ceilings of demar & tross?? or perhaps i see lowry & JV as being more integral – long term – to the overall success of the team as those two?

          i see wiggins as a transcendent-type player, someone who’s potentially a gifted defender & supreme athlete, and who’s being picked apart because he doesn’t have an ‘A’ offensive game (yet).

          what, exactly, is so wrong with a ‘mcrady-type’? a freak athlete who can defend 4 positions, handle the ball, shoot from everywhere? i think his career has been unfairly maligned due to how it ended, and his playoff ‘failures’ have been blown waaaay out of proportion.

          • Robin

            I think there player you described would be great obviously. But you take away our only two players who can consistently create and score at a reasonable rate against other NBA starters (JV maybe could as well) and we would be a 30 win team in today’s NBA if he comes into the league as a player like McGrady with one year’s experience and that one starting player not rotating on defense consistently is a -5 to -10 in the win column and that excludes the lost offense.

            That commercial that shows all the ex-raptors such as Walt Williams, Rod Strickland Hubert Davis, Sean Marks, Garth Joesph etc…I can name every one of them, what a horrible thing this franchise has done to my mind…those were sad days. While I am being emotional I am also very rational in being sure the path we are taking is the right one.

            • 2damkule

              short-term pain…

              • Robin

                I get it just disagree is all

                • 2damkule

                  no harm with that. there’s a really big part of me that’s happy they’re on this track now. i just temper it with knowing that as bad as the losing was, being perpetually ‘good’ is probably worse. but hey, they don’t have any onerous contracts, they’re young, they’re in the east, and talent is starting to spread around a bit, so who knows what’ll happen.

                • Robin

                  Agreed, we all want the same thing. Masai is the best GM the Raptors have ever and I’m guessing he thinks like the majority of us in seeing that we are on track to being a 2nd round/Eastern finals team ala a Clippers/Memphis/Indiana type team. The kicker is we need that superstar to put us over…but I think there is a 50% chance we reach the EC finals over the next 3 years with a 20% chance at a Durant type in F.A. versus trading for Wiggins and a 50%+ chance we don’t make the playoffs for 3 years and I am happy with that.

          • sleepz

            +1

            If McGrady stays healthy he is in the HOF. From 2001-06 he was a handful.

  • Mexiballer

    Ha ha… I’m sure glad that you are not our GM. This isnt poker Tim.

  • djzone

    This guy TImW has officially gone bonkers. Waste of my time reading this dumb article.

  • webfeat

    “giving up DeRozan, Amir (to Minnesota) and possibly Terrence Ross”

    Uuuuuugggggh. You talk about buying low and selling high, but here you’re doing the opposite. Amir is probably one of the most underrated players on the team – there’s no way you’re going to get his value back in a trade. TRoss still has upside and DD’s work ethic likely means he does, too. Wiggins is seen as a great talent, but he’s no Durant or LBJ like rookie. There’s no guarantees that he’ll be an all-star.

    I think Ujiri has maneuvered himself into a position where any major moves will likely hurt the team more than help it. It’s time to exercise some patience.

  • arsenalist

    I like how this article shits on Ross, Valanciunas, and DeRozan as being limited players you can’t build teams around, but then assumes that other teams will take them because they’ll build teams around them.

    • 2damkule

      that’s my biggest problem…no way minny gives up love & gets back just that.

      • arsenalist

        An old ROTD:

        “I’m going to trade my 10 crt monitors for my friends 24″ LCD screen. I don’t know why he keeps saying no. If you add up the prices, it’s about the same amount of money. Why does he keep saying. “I have a 24″ led, why do I want or need a pile of junk??.”)

        • 2damkule

          yup…this is what i don’t get about those on the site ripping Tim a new one…the proposal is asinine, but they think it’s asinine from the wrong perspective, like the raps are giving up too much!

          • jjdynomite

            Define “giving up too much”. The Kobe-Dwight-Gasol-Nash Lakers were going to run the table and smoke the Heat with 4 “transcendentally elite” players, SI cover story and all. TimW must have been jerking off all over his keyboard to the thought of these 4 elite, transcendent players, laying the smack down to the league. How could they ever lose a game with so much transcendence!
            Didn’t work out that way. Goes to show that if you don’t have LeBron on your team — although Timmy thinks Wiggins could be the Next LeBron, or maybe not, or maybe whatever — perhaps chemistry, shared goals and solid coaching and management can make a difference….? Kinda like the Spurs that he gives shout outs to for the other half of his ridiculous article?
            People are getting on Tim’s case because the jury is still out whether the Raptors, as currently constructed — with internal growth and $20 million in cap space in 2015-2016 — cannot become a contending team. But no, according to Tim, we’re dead on arrival, and might as well trash the whole party for the Thrill from ThornhillTM.

            • DC

              Don’t disagree with you – without the public vulgarities – but you do realize that “transcendent” was Tim Chisholm’s adjective, not Tim W.’s, don’t you? Haven’t checked, but don’t recall Tim W. ever using the word you are repeating to try to ridicule him.

    • dribbles

      It’s quite possible other teams hold those players in much higher esteem than Tim, and Tim may be aware of that, don’t you think? Jesus, we traded Bargs for a 1st rounder.

      I’m not arguing that the T-Wolves would take that offer, but if they know Love is going to bolt they will take what they think is the best offer on the table. If the proposal looks something like (this is rough as I’m not a trade machine guy):

      Minnesota gets: DeRozan, Amir, TO first, Bennett (Tristan is slated to be overpaid soon so forget him), CLE first (the MIA pick)
      Cleveland gets: Love and whatever for salary purposes (they’re not getting Ross…the prize is Love)
      TO gets: Wiggins, shitty MIN contract(s)

      They may have to think about that depending on what other offers they’re getting. Other teams have lost star players for a whole lot less, cough fucking cough.

      I think the proposal is bad for two main reasons:

      1) The timing is not realistic. Tim may not have to care about this, but Masai isn’t going to blow up the team to take a chance on Wiggins right now. Not after last season. Lowry would kill him, so would Casey. The fans want to build off last season.
      2) I hope he proves me wrong but Wiggins just doesn’t look to me like he’s going to be an elite player. Very good, yes, but I don’t see the play making, the killer instinct, etc. Don’t think he’s worth the risk, but I could be wrong.

      Tim is a bit of a broken record, granted, but this is a completely legit issue to discuss. People comparing the Raps to the Spurs (continuity, chemistry etc.) are out to lunch. They have 3 HOF’ers and a HOF coach that have been together for ages. The Raps are not in that universe. The 2000-whatever Pistons were an anomaly so don’t bring that up. The Raps were fun to watch and they should get better, but if you want a contender then you should stop crying when someone wants to kick the tire at ideas on how to add elite talent. It’s friggin summer league now, what else is there to talk about. Bruno’s wingspan? If you’re happy with the team as is just ignore the fucking article and let the armchair GMs have at it.

      • Alex Vostrikov

        +1 on everything.
        lowry will definitely force his way out of town if you get rookie for half of the current team…..
        the team is alright… but can it really compete? handful of teams changed over night, including Cleveland, Washington, charlotte…
        and I don’t see Miami get any worse. maybe even better, if you consider that now they will have a good bench. by the way, cant wait to see bosh… its his team from now on.
        raps are lucky to be in the Atlantic division… so lets hope

  • raooptoorrr

    Try

  • Bryan Colangelo

    Tim, thank you for floating the idea of trading Derozan for Wiggins and taking the heat for it. To be honest the same idea crossed my mind. If Toronto were serious about bringing Wiggins, the time would absolutely be now as a rookie while we have assets that fit the Cavs’ needs.

    It would be a massive sacrifice, involving giving up great, proven assets for higher long-term potential. Given Demar’s age (he still has at least five great years left) I wouldn’t pull the trigger on that trade.

  • rapierraptor

    Tim is espousing pretty conventional beliefs about team building in this article. I am not sure why everyone is losing their shit. I think he’s a little too dismissive of the talent on the roster but to each their own.

    • jjdynomite

      “I think he’s a little too dismissive of the talent on the roster….”

      You answered your own question. Congrats.

  • Keepup

    So, Tim W is the guy that has led the charge to tank to get top-5 picks because they are the rare and precious currency to create a champion, and now thinks the Raptors can get two recent #1 overall picks (Wiggins, who he touted as the future franchise player) and a #4 overall for DeRozan, Amir and Ross. So, what is it? Are #1 and top-five picks really valuable, or not?

    • 2damkule

      yes

  • raooptoorrr

    The point of the article isn’t saying that the raptors aren’t a playoff team, it’s just that the way they are built now they are not truly title contenders. There is a small chance they might win the east this year, but it’s obvious that the cavs, bulls and pacers and western teams are better. As well washington, charlotte, Atlanta are all improving, no doubt the raptors will improve this year too, but realistically for the raps to be title contenders they need dd to be better. DD scores yes but he’s shoot a lot too! Can DD get to that level? While I would like to trade DD to get back Dante Exum and nick stauskas(I value them highly), I think mu is giving time for these group of players. It been a long time since the raps has been relevant in the NBA and as a gm it’ll be a Hugh risk to let that go. I view this as a 2 year project, by that time there will be a clearer picture as to the ceiling of the players and how good this team really is.

    • 2damkule

      there’s a lot of fans scared of going backward by rocking the boat, and just want to continue to good feels. that’ll last another season-ish.

  • Roarque

    Can I throw a red herring into this thread? Well, I’m going to anyway:
    Why not pick up Ed Davis? I miss the guy and so does Amir. And so does Demar.
    Maybe the Bucks will grab him 😉

  • dino4life

    Funny that you say ” While Cleveland doesn’t have an All Star that they would be willing to
    part with (Irving obviously isn’t going anywhere), Toronto does” according to who ? the RR haters ?
    When as Masai ever shown an inclination to part with him ? Even after the Rudy gay trade and the team was expected to be blown up, we heard about lowry everyday and not once anything about demar, It was rumored teams were calling about about amir, and were rebuffed citing that his connection to the fanbase makes him more important then what he brings on the court.
    I understand the debates about trading demar & Amir will never stop unless they win MVP, but don’t present it as the raptors thinking, present it as your own.

  • Simon King

    Ok article. I don’t agree with your view of JV’s ceiling, although I do think your assessment re Raptors ultimate need for internal development is spot on. But your proposed trade isn’t happening in this universe. Wiggins alone would not be available for that package, and JV would almost certainly have to be included in any trade for Wiggins. In any event, can’t wait for the season! Go Raps!

  • TRoss1000

    Saying Terrence Ross will never be better than a good role player is a prime example of the ridiculousness of this writer’s view. I understand he relishes the role of devil’s advocate, but statements like that are laughable. If I remember correctly he did tie the franchise record for points in a single game, with his age how can you say he’ll just be a good role player. He could be special, he may not be, but he has the potential to be. Fact is, this team exceeded expectations (albeit very low at that) and considering what we’ve had to endure, I like our chances with a solid core of decent players that have a year’s experience playing together under their belt. There is no way I see them regressing after the entire core (plus JJ and Lou) are intact.

    He wants to trade DD, Ross and Amir for a kid who, despite obvious physical gifts, hasn’t done anything in the league yet? I don’t think that’s very productive for our future. I’ve spent almost twenty years following this sad-sack of a team and this is by far the most solid group we’ve had (save 2000-2001) so while there is no chance we take the championship this year, to advocate trading everyone and starting all over again, nonsense.

  • BraLLer

    I disagree with many thoughts in this article. I expect derozen, jonas, and Ross to all show improvements this year. I don’t think you can part with any of those three. An all star caliber player who is only getting better is worth holding on to. Mind you, there are only 12 of those in each conference.

    I read about trading derozen last year and he really shut people up. Hopefully he makes you eat your words again.

    I believe this core can be a title contender one day. We just have to wait.

    Fuck Landry fields though

  • Lets Play

    We need a Back up CENTRE!!! Honestly, what will happen not if but when Jonas gets injured. We were lucky last year in terms of the injury bug during the season, but we desperately need a back up centre. I was hoping that we can somehow get back Aaron Grey, that guy was pure AWESOME!!!

    • TRoss1000

      I sincerely hope that last sentence was sarcasm.

      • Lets Play

        Nope, not sarcasm, Aaron Grey was pure AWESOME!!!

        • TRoss1000

          I need the drugs your on. I’d rather have a scarecrow at centre.

  • DerekHologram

    If this is the cost of Wiggins at the low point of his value I’d hate to see the cost when he is at the high point. But perhaps he is at the high point now given how unlimited potential can be.

  • Bryan Colangelo

    If people on the board really believe that Wiggins is the next chosen star — and believe me, there are — there is absolutely an argument to trade for him now.

    I have to say, I’m really disappointed with the vitriol aimed at Tim W on this board. It’s not his role or goal as a writer to be a complete homer or only write things you agree with. This is an op-ed; a thought experiment he’s come up with during the dog day’s of summer.

    There’s such a thing as disagreeing with someone and still respecting the person. If your response is to simply dismiss Tim W as being a fraud, and idiot, or essentially an enemy to you and your interests, than the problem is with you, not Tim W.

    In short, try not to take Tim W or yourselves so seriously. This is a basketball blog where all kinds of opinions are welcome.

  • Guest

    Wow.

    I know the history of Tim W. advocating for a tank, but this article didn’t read so bad, at least to me. What, one dig at TRoss and advocating to try (an impossible) trade for Wiggins?

    Y’all went 0 to 100 real quick.

    • mountio

      i thought the same thing. Not that bad, considering

  • Dubnjoy000

    Wow, what does it take to get banned from these-here forums? Or how insulting/disrespectful can 1 single poster be? Good thought provoking article, and lets keep in mind that the proposed trade was not just for Wiggins, but Bennet/Thompson as well… That said, while all of us would love to see a championship, let us not forget that a growing-together-playoff bound-team is something to be proud of ; every year, there is 1 championship team and 29 teams that are not, but to be part of the 16 playoff teams is a win in its own… Lets enjoy the journey and not be so self-entitled, sounds fair?

  • Roarque

    TimW – 211 responses to your piece! Excellent! Using the industry standard of 50 readers for every written response means the site had 10,000 hits today that we can show to Toyota or however rents the add space on Raptors Republic for your reader profile.
    Nice work.
    ESPN
    P.S. – What was the piece about anyway?

  • Dubnjoy000

    make that 216 responses, and yes, good article, well detailed/elaborated and thought provoking.

  • Raymond

    I believe Ross could be more than 3 and D, he has the skill to finish near the board, Jumping ability is better than DD, the problem is he doesn’t has gut to drive in.

    • Alex Vostrikov

      well.. you cant learn “gut”. you have it, or you don’t. ross doesn’t. end of story.

  • c_bcm

    Over 200 comments in 12 hours. Not bad Tim W. And people wonder why RR wants him to contribute articles.

  • Gary73

    I have been thinking of just this scenario, ie greesing the wheels on a minni cleve trade with DD and Amir. Just didn’t see the need to include TRoss, esp if we have to take back a bad contract.

  • steve fisher

    GREAT IDEA for a trade where we gain in the long run and remain competitive in the short run.Anthony Bennett is a beast on the boards and could more than match AJ in scoring. Also he is just coming into his own and after last season we would be buying low. Wiggins is a far better defender than DD now and yes he will score less but because he would allow fewer points the net loss would be minimal in the short run In the long run the net loss would evolve into an ever widening gap (gain). TR has potential scary upside but AW because of his superior defense NOW would be a big upgrade NOW!!! Even if we took back a bad short term contract it would be no big deal because we are not going to win this year BUT in the next few years watch out considering the age of our young core!!! GO FOR IT UM !!!!! Steve Fisher

  • Eunys

    Please stop insulting Tim W; lol the guy just made a very weak point thinking Wiggins is a a future Shaquille O’Neal, Allen Iverson, Tim Duncan, Olajuwon or LeBron James. He does not even have the body and ability to become one of those guys. Finding a “good” player isn’t a sure thing and that is exactly what we have in Demar Derozan ; a “good” player.

    Michael Olowokandi, Keith Van Horn, Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf, Danny Ferry, Dennis Hopson, and Chris Washburn. On draft night these players were certainly considered “Very good.” like Wiggins. But their performance in the NBA failed to match this expectation. Same for Evan Turner, Hasheem Thabeet, Michael Beasley, O.J. Mayo, Adam Morrison, our Great Andrea Bargnani, Marvin Williams, Ben Gordon, Darko Milicic, and Kwame Brown.

    Everybody thinks that Wiggins will be a “no brainer” force in the NBA. lol the guy is somewhat similar to the players I cited above . He is young. He can score. And he played for a winner last year (that didn’t quite reach the Final
    Four) but the stats that predict future performance in the NBA don’t make Wiggins look so good. Since 1991, more than 1,000 players have been selected out of the college ranks by NBA teams. Of all these players, Wiggins—with an
    effective field goal percentage of 49.9%—ranked 842nd in shooting efficiency. And when it comes to rebounding, Wiggins also ranked 842nd. In sum, Wiggins did not dominate non-NBA players in college. Why would he had a “no
    brainer” potential to dominate in the NBA?

    Please lol This whole Wiggins thing is just guided by the Fact that he is Canadian. lol Keep him in Cleveland I prefer Demar D with his weak defense and his 23 PPG. Anyway history has showed us that The No. 1 picks has
    career averages of 15.5 points, 7.1 rebounds and 2.9 assists…This is still lower than Demar.

  • Alex Vostrikov

    Minnesota will never take derozan over wiggins. even if he is 10 times better at the moment.
    did you think how derozan and rubio will look together (with out love of coarse)? sorry, awful back court.

  • B_Leaf

    To suggest this Raptor team has hit its ceiling and has little chance to improve seems pessimistic.
    1) This team has two young high picks in Ross and Valanciunas who just took leeps forward in there development this year. Still a ton of growth potential.
    2) DeRozan has improved every year, there is every chance that continues
    3) This team hasn’t played together for a year yet
    4) Throw out the 7-14 start and this team looks better
    5) Team defense was good but as JV and TRoss improve it should get much better

    Let this team grow another year and see what happens

  • The Courthawk

    A Letter to Amir Johnson from a Raptors fan

    Dear Amir,

    I hope this letter finds you nicely. Through this last little bit I have been thinking a lot about you. I need to reach out and I hope you listen. Our relationship depends on it.

    Hard work, persistence, and a positive demeanor, have led Coach Casey to use adjectives like ‘warrior’ and ‘gritty’ when describing you. Coach is right by the way. This commitment to your team, along with improving your body, your use of social media to help identify with Toronto to the Good, and your willingness to put yourself out there and live in the city your play ball in, made you Mr. Raptor… until this recent signing of Kyle Lowry…that twit-pic of him in Vince’s 15 may have just usurped you.

    Regardless of if you are the reigning Mr. Raptor or not, I think you have been done great with the potential
    you have. However, just like when you date someone long enough that little things grow on your nerves— the overuse of the word like, not putting the toothpaste cap on, reaching for your favourite cereal box and finding it empty in the cupboard…—there is one thing I need to get off my chest. Your ankles and the shoes you put them in. WTF!

    As we enter into the deeper part of this all important summer, in which you have chosen recuperating exercises instead of surgery on your ankle(s), I beg of you to wear shoes with proper support. Cumbersome looking throwback Jordan’s, low-cut sneakers, and the lack of ankle braces have really grown to irk me for the last two years. If I was a woman, each one of these offenses would be comparable to you leaving the seat down, completing a lazy pee and not correcting the situation before I go to the washroom. You make your bacon on being an ‘agile’ big man who depends on being quicker than your opponent. You need your ankles. Take care of them. Go look at old footage of Ewing and Olajuwan. They both wore fat, old, volleyball knee-pads
    to avoid injury. They needed their knees. They didn’t look ridiculous because they played fearless ball, confident in the fact that they had adequately protected their bodies. I know they are both Hall-of-Famers and you are not, but if the NBA has taught us anything, you can wear pretty much whatever you want and it will be accepted if you play better than your opponent. It’s a fact you have weak ankles. You need to actively protect your ankles. This is a must! Moving forward in our relationship, you showing disregard for your ankles will be considered a deal breaker.

    I am sorry if I sound like a nag. It’s just something that needed to be said.

    To bring it back to the positive, I really like how your shot is developing. In Darwinian fashion, you are trying your
    best to change with the times. I am sure it doesn’t hurt that 2-Pat is breathing on your bar-code for the starting role and playing time. Maybe next year you can get over that hump and become a Bosh-like three point shooter. Little by little.

    I don’t think you get applauded enough for churning potential muscle mass into reality. Something we all wish Vince would have done while he was hear. In his stay with the Raptors, can you imagine if he gave a shit about his body instead of romance the pouch in the off season? Wow.

    It is also important to remember the legacy you have left. No matter how many blown close-outs happen, I shall never forget that during the dreary days, when Bagrnani was dribbling end-of-game set plays off his legs, you were the bright spot. Amir Johnson, you have put blood, sweat, and maybe tears into wearing number 15 for the Raptors. We appreciate it.

    I think you have earned our city and county’s love. We reward those who really care. After you’re done playing
    for us Raptors, you will be celebrated in similar fashion to Alvin Williams, Mo Peterson, and JYD. Sprite, let’s get Amir a commercial already. One in which you Amir, are rocking two sleek ankle braces in modern high tops with firm support.

    With gratitude, respect, and pinch of reservation,

    A Raptors Fan

    p.s. There are some great close-out drills on YouTube:

    http://www.bing.com/videos/searchq=closeout+basketball+drill&FORM=HDRSC3#view=detail&mid=EB7BD56D140D4B5B9D21EB7BD56D140D4B5B9D21

    • Louvens Remy

      This was really nice, touching and funny. Amir is the man.
      “breathing down your barcode” is my new favorite saying.

    • Grustle Buckets

      All season Amir’s ankles were talked about, but never really discussed? Ankles are all players Passports. RR, do we know something about his…

  • Louvens Remy

    I feel like Terrence Ross provides a lot of the same things that Wiggins is going to provide. Terry is going into his third year and has the defence, a way better shot and the handles to get into the lane. There is not much that distinguishes them from each other in terms of athleticism, in my opinion. Wiggins is a few years away from what Terrence Ross is at the moment. Let’s not get too carried away by what we see in the Summer League. I remember Terrence Ross showed us the same things that Wiggins did in his summer league stint. These guys are playing against their peers and a bunch of fringe dudes trying to make it in the L. I’m good with the team we have. We can’t forget that when you build you want to have what the Raps have right now. Young talent, growing and evolving into their roles. Developping into solid NBA players. I believe that Ross is going to develop in the same way that Demar has. Ross was in his second year, on a team that was winning. It’s not inconceivable that he had the deer in the headlights look or was a bit shy to drive. I don’t see it happening this year. After the playoffs he had, he’s determined. I’m looking at a solid 15ppg from him to go with solid D. He will get to the line probably at least 5-6 times a game. My two cents…

  • Stef

    I like this, Tim W. I’d do it.

  • Alex

    There is soooo much hate… He is saying that if you truly want to contend with the most elite teams in the NBA, such as the Spurs, OKC, Clips, you need at least top 5-10 player in the league. Look back through the history of the league and this is true. The Raptors, as good as they are, currently do not have one of these players. Tim clearly wants the Raps to contend for titles and the best way to do that is to give up good-but-not-elite players for a player who could be elite. Having said this, I think the Raps should keep the team as is and MAYBE make a run at a conference finals.

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